FW: Wrong Argentinian DST introduced in version 2008f
I'm forwarding this message from Aurelien Jarno, who is not on the time zone mailing list. Those of you who are on the time zone mailing list, please direct replies appropriately. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Aurelien Jarno [mailto:aurelien@aurel32.net] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:29 To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Wrong Argentinian DST introduced in version 2008f Hi, tzdata version 2008f introduced a rule for Argentinian DST based on http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_argentina03.html and http://www.impulsobaires.com.ar/nota.php?id=57832 Unfortunately those links only speak about rumors of a DST change, there is nothing fixed officially, and according to some Argentinian people DST may even not happen this year. Until an official decision is taken it is probably a lot better to remove any DST rule for year 2008. Please find attached a patch to do that. Regards, Aurelien -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno | GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' aurel32@debian.org | aurelien@aurel32.net `- people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:31:03 -0400 From: "Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E]" <olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov> Message-ID: <B410D30A78C6404C9DABEA31B54A2813029A0223@nihcesmlbx10.nih.gov> | From: Aurelien Jarno [mailto:aurelien@aurel32.net]=20 | Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:29 | To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov | Subject: Wrong Argentinian DST introduced in version 2008f | | tzdata version 2008f introduced a rule for Argentinian DST based on | http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_argentina03.html | and | http://www.impulsobaires.com.ar/nota.php?id=3D57832 Not really. 2008f changed the expected start date based upon those. Previous version(s) (certainly 2008e, maybe earlier I didn't check) had the start date from the first Sun in Oct, which is how the legislation apparently passed last December was explained (back last December.) | Unfortunately those links only speak about rumors of a DST change, there | is nothing fixed officially, and according to some Argentinian people | DST may even not happen this year. Unfortunately, summer time is one of those things that people argue about a lot, and last minute changes happen all the time. Sometimes there's no choice but to guess at what looks most likely, based upon all available information, as expecting to get updates distributed, and installed, everywhere, with just a couple of days (or even weeks) notice is absurd. Which is exactly why there's all this trouble in Argentina now, if we had just had 2008f times, no-one would have noticed anything yesterday. It is just that 2008f isn't installed in enough places yet (it is only 3 weeks old) to have affected much - many sites are still using older data from when we believed that the first Sun in Oct was the right rule. Hence, some systems turned on summer time yesterday. Others running either much older tzdata (last year) won't have summer time at all, and others running 2008f (or today's 2008g) will start it in 2 weeks. A huge mess. If there is anyone actually in Argentina reading this, (Aurelien I don't know where you are, nor Nicolas Alvarez) could you please contact the appropriate govt office and ask - ASAP. Get a reference to something official, written - if available via the web, even better, but even just an authoritative verbal statement would be better than nothing. kre
On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:16:15PM +0700, Robert Elz wrote:
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:31:03 -0400 From: "Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E]" <olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov> Message-ID: <B410D30A78C6404C9DABEA31B54A2813029A0223@nihcesmlbx10.nih.gov>
| From: Aurelien Jarno [mailto:aurelien@aurel32.net]=20 | Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:29 | To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov | Subject: Wrong Argentinian DST introduced in version 2008f | | tzdata version 2008f introduced a rule for Argentinian DST based on | http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_argentina03.html | and | http://www.impulsobaires.com.ar/nota.php?id=3D57832
Not really. 2008f changed the expected start date based upon those. Previous version(s) (certainly 2008e, maybe earlier I didn't check) had the start date from the first Sun in Oct, which is how the legislation apparently passed last December was explained (back last December.)
I have been told the legislation was for one year only, not for this year.
| Unfortunately those links only speak about rumors of a DST change, there | is nothing fixed officially, and according to some Argentinian people | DST may even not happen this year.
Unfortunately, summer time is one of those things that people argue about a lot, and last minute changes happen all the time. Sometimes there's no choice but to guess at what looks most likely, based upon all available information, as expecting to get updates distributed, and installed, everywhere, with just a couple of days (or even weeks) notice is absurd.
IMHO, it is a really bad idea to "guess" the next DST when we don't have official information. People from Argentina really know the issue with their government and they are ready to cope with last minute changes. The problem with guessing is that the changes happens at a wrong date and at a moment when it is *totally unexpected*. On the contrary without trying to guess, the new version of tzdata may comes very late, but at least people are aware of possible problems, and *expect* them.
Which is exactly why there's all this trouble in Argentina now, if we had just had 2008f times, no-one would have noticed anything yesterday. It is just that 2008f isn't installed in enough places yet (it is only 3 weeks old) to have affected much - many sites are still using older data from when we believed that the first Sun in Oct was the right rule.
You can't ask people to be always up to date on the tzdata version. People update tzdata when they now a DST change will happen, not when a date that has been guessed and thus is *unknown* from the lambda user comes.
Hence, some systems turned on summer time yesterday. Others running either much older tzdata (last year) won't have summer time at all, and others running 2008f (or today's 2008g) will start it in 2 weeks.
So maybe in two weeks we will have the same problem again...
A huge mess. If there is anyone actually in Argentina reading this, (Aurelien I don't know where you are, nor Nicolas Alvarez) could you please contact the appropriate govt office and ask - ASAP. Get a reference to something official, written - if available via the web, even better, but even just an authoritative verbal statement would be better than nothing.
I am not in Argentina, I am just relaying requests from Argentinian people. Currently there is no official information available because *no decision has been taken*. As usual, the decision will be taken very late regarding to the date of the change. What they want is that people *stop trying to guess* a possible date for the DST change, and instead just update tzdata when we have official data, even if it is really late. Regards, Aurelien -- .''`. Aurelien Jarno | GPG: 1024D/F1BCDB73 : :' : Debian developer | Electrical Engineer `. `' aurel32@debian.org | aurelien@aurel32.net `- people.debian.org/~aurel32 | www.aurel32.net
2008/10/7 Aurelien Jarno <aurelien@aurel32.net>:
On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:16:15PM +0700, Robert Elz wrote:
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:31:03 -0400 From: "Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E]" <olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov> Message-ID: <B410D30A78C6404C9DABEA31B54A2813029A0223@nihcesmlbx10.nih.gov>
| From: Aurelien Jarno [mailto:aurelien@aurel32.net]=20 | Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:29 | To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov | Subject: Wrong Argentinian DST introduced in version 2008f | | tzdata version 2008f introduced a rule for Argentinian DST based on | http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_argentina03.html | and | http://www.impulsobaires.com.ar/nota.php?id=3D57832
Not really. 2008f changed the expected start date based upon those. Previous version(s) (certainly 2008e, maybe earlier I didn't check) had the start date from the first Sun in Oct, which is how the legislation apparently passed last December was explained (back last December.)
I have been told the legislation was for one year only, not for this year.
| Unfortunately those links only speak about rumors of a DST change, there | is nothing fixed officially, and according to some Argentinian people | DST may even not happen this year.
Unfortunately, summer time is one of those things that people argue about a lot, and last minute changes happen all the time. Sometimes there's no choice but to guess at what looks most likely, based upon all available information, as expecting to get updates distributed, and installed, everywhere, with just a couple of days (or even weeks) notice is absurd.
IMHO, it is a really bad idea to "guess" the next DST when we don't have official information. People from Argentina really know the issue with their government and they are ready to cope with last minute changes.
The problem with guessing is that the changes happens at a wrong date and at a moment when it is *totally unexpected*. On the contrary without trying to guess, the new version of tzdata may comes very late, but at least people are aware of possible problems, and *expect* them.
Ah! This is my opinion too, and what I was talking about in the other ("Brazil rule issue") thread.
Which is exactly why there's all this trouble in Argentina now, if we had just had 2008f times, no-one would have noticed anything yesterday. It is just that 2008f isn't installed in enough places yet (it is only 3 weeks old) to have affected much - many sites are still using older data from when we believed that the first Sun in Oct was the right rule.
You can't ask people to be always up to date on the tzdata version. People update tzdata when they now a DST change will happen, not when a date that has been guessed and thus is *unknown* from the lambda user comes.
Hence, some systems turned on summer time yesterday. Others running either much older tzdata (last year) won't have summer time at all, and others running 2008f (or today's 2008g) will start it in 2 weeks.
So maybe in two weeks we will have the same problem again...
A huge mess. If there is anyone actually in Argentina reading this, (Aurelien I don't know where you are, nor Nicolas Alvarez) could you please contact the appropriate govt office and ask - ASAP. Get a reference to something official, written - if available via the web, even better, but even just an authoritative verbal statement would be better than nothing.
I am not in Argentina, I am just relaying requests from Argentinian people. Currently there is no official information available because *no decision has been taken*.
As usual, the decision will be taken very late regarding to the date of the change. What they want is that people *stop trying to guess* a possible date for the DST change, and instead just update tzdata when we have official data, even if it is really late.
-- (nil)
participants (4)
-
Aurelien Jarno -
Gustavo De Nardin -
Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E] -
Robert Elz