FW: Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is no w GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4)
Aiet Kolkhi is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately. The change of Georgia to GMT+3 is already reflected in tzdata2004e.tar.gz; the suggested move of Georgia to Europe from Asia is not. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Aiet Kolkhi [mailto:aiet@qartuli.net] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:39 PM To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is now GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4) Hello, There has been a time zone change in GEORGIA (capital: Tbilisi). Georgia used to be a GMT+4 country, with DST rules just like Berlin or Paris, but since June 27, 2004, the newly-elected Parliament chose to set national time GEST one hour erlier, just like it was in the old days. As a result, the timzone Georgia belongs is GMT+3 (+1 hour during Daylight Saiving Times, just like it is now). DST rules remain, i.e. DST starts on March 28 and ends on Oct. 31. You may read BBC story about the change here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3843511.stm Also, the information has been already corrected at timeanddate.com Here is the link to Tbilisi, Georgia: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=371 Another important notice: It would be more proper and politically correct to list Georgia in (East) Europe section and not in Asia. Georgia was considered Asian country due to improper information during Soviet times, but since the break-up of the Soviet, Georgia tends to be included in Europe rather than in Asia in more and more places. The BBC link I provided above for example also includes Georgia in Europian region. It is correct, since Georgia has always been more Europian country than Asian, with Christian religion since 4th AD and Europian traditions. Georgia is also a member of Europian Council and the EU flag is hanging next to the Georgian flag in front of Georgian Parliament :) Please CC any inquiries/replies regarding this matter DIRECTLY to my address, as I'm not subscribed to this list. Thank you. -- Best regards, Aiet Kolkhi mailto:aiet@qartuli.net http://aiet.qartuli.net
Another important notice: It would be more proper and politically correct to list Georgia in (East) Europe section and not in Asia. Georgia was considered Asian country due to improper information during Soviet times, but since the break-up of the Soviet, Georgia tends to be included in Europe rather than in Asia in more and more places.
The boundary between Europe and Asia isn't very well defined. In the north, it's generally taken to follow the Urals, which sort of fade out approaching the Kazakhstan border. In the west it runs along the Bosporus, splitting Turkey. What's much less clear is what to do between the two. Looking at some maps, I'd argue that it runs roughly to Oremburg and then down the river Ural to the Caspian, cutting off a small section of Kazakhstan, but I'd happily divert it to follow the national border. It's then got to get between the Caspian and the Black Seas; there's no obvious reason to follow one route rather than another: | Russia | Black +-------------+-----+ Caspian Sea | Georgia | | Sea | /-+ | +------+---< Azerb.| | |Arm.\ | |Turkey+-----+------+ | | Iran | However, the upper horizontal line on that diagram roughly follows the Great Caucasus Mountains, which makes a reasonable boundary. Based on that, I'd put Georgia in Asia together with the other two. But I wouldn't be averse to a link from the European section of the database. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: <clive@demon.net> | Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 Internet Expert | Home: <clive@davros.org> | Fax: +44 870 051 9937 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | |
"Clive D.W. Feather" <clive@demon.net> writes:
However, the upper horizontal line on that diagram roughly follows the Great Caucasus Mountains, which makes a reasonable boundary.
The key question here is what continent Tbilisi is in, since that's the data point that the tz database uses. Modern sources typically give either the crest of the Caucasus, or the Kuma-Manych Depression (which separates the Russian Plain from the North Caucasus), as the boundary between Europe and Asia in that region. This would put Tbilisi in Asia. For ancient sources the story is more interesting. Prof. Thomas V. Gamkrelidze, Member of the Georgian Parliament, writes in <http://www.parliament.ge/GENERAL/C_D/europe.htm> that for the ancient Greeks the boundary was the river Phasis, normally identified with the modern Rioni. Gamkrelidze must be alluding to Herodotus, Histories, IV.45 <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Hdt.+4.45.1> but he omits some crucial details. Herodotus wrote that the border between Europe and Asia is not universally agreed upon, and that some say it's the Don, some the Kerch straits, and some (including Herodotus himself) the Phasis river. All these interpretations would mean that Tbilisi itself in Asia, even though Herodotus's preferred border (the Phasis/Rioni) would mean that some of Georgia is in Europe. But wait, there's more! Gamkrelidze writes that some people identify the Phasis with the modern Chorokhi River. This extreme interpretation would put most of Georgia (including Tbilisi) in Europe (along with some of northeast Turkey, and perhaps Armenia and a few other places....). However, I haven't been able to find any other source that makes this claim: all the standard sources I have found identify the Phasis with the modern Rioni. This shouldn't be too surprising, since the Rioni flows into the Black Sea at Poti, and Poti's ancient name was also Phasis. I'm pretty dubious about any attempt to identify the Phasis with the Chorokhi, and if you read Gamkrelidze's article you'll see he's pretty dubious about that too. While we're on the subject of ancient sources, Strabo, Geography, XI.1 <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Strab.+11.1.1> says flatly that the boundary between Europe and Asia is the Don. To summarize the last few paragraphs: all the ancient sources I've found agree that Tbilisi itself is in Asia.
Hello. As there have been some replies on the matter, I have subscribed to the mailing list, so you don't have to cc on every reply :) Thank you Paul, for the valuable information and resources. As a matter of fact, I am Georgian and have never heard that Phasis could be associated with the Chorokhi River :) Phasis is indeed Rioni and the whole Golden Fleece story is just one of the facts proving it. As to the border between Europe and Asia, many sources indeed consider the Phasis River to be deviding Georgia in europian and asian parts, and there is no doubt that some part of Georgia can be conisdered a part of Europe, though the border is always said to be unfixed. Georgian's mission has always been to link Europe with Asia, resulting in "Eurasian" country and culture. Colkhis for instance should be considered Europe, whereas Iberia, I guess, should be in Asia. If we consider the culture, behavour, characteristics and traditions of Georgia, it may seem more Europian than Asian today, though actually 'Georgian' would best describe it. I agree that whenever the city Tbilisi is noted, it should be put in Asian region, whereas mentioning the country, maybe we should put it in Europe, or in Europe and Asia if possible. If it's about politics (and I guess it is, since there has never been a strict border between Europe and Asia), than Europe would be the best place for present-day Georgia, considering the fact that Georgia is already a memeber of Council of Europe and may well be a memeber of EU in next years. What about Turkey? Geographically and historically the main part of Turkey has always belonged to Asia, though the recent developments show that it will become a EU member state. Would it be correct to list a EU member state in Asia? There is another fact speaking in favour of putting Georgia in Europe. Recent archeological findings in Dmanisi region of Georgia show the traces of living in Georgia 2,5 million years ago (!) making it a possible home of all pre-Europian poeple before they moved to Western Europe (the article can be found in lasts years Nationa Geographic and other sources of that kind, as well as here: http://www.cac-biodiversity.org/geo/geo_history.htm ) So, as a conclusion, I can not definitely belong Georgia to Europe and Asia. It is definitely a part of both, or none, but not the part of any of the regions. As Clive D.W. Feather suggested, maybe we should just place a link in Europe and Asia and leave the matter to be decided by the ongoing developments in Europe and Asia :-) Many sources have listed Georgia in Asia, whereas more and more sources seem to putting it in Europe. WorldAtlas.com for example puts it in Europe, ( http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/ge.htm ) but CIA World Factbook in Asia. Best regards, Aiet Wednesday, October 27, 2004, 12:32:43 AM, you wrote:
"Clive D.W. Feather" <clive@demon.net> writes:
However, the upper horizontal line on that diagram roughly follows the Great Caucasus Mountains, which makes a reasonable boundary.
The key question here is what continent Tbilisi is in, since that's the data point that the tz database uses.
Modern sources typically give either the crest of the Caucasus, or the Kuma-Manych Depression (which separates the Russian Plain from the North Caucasus), as the boundary between Europe and Asia in that region. This would put Tbilisi in Asia.
For ancient sources the story is more interesting. Prof. Thomas V. Gamkrelidze, Member of the Georgian Parliament, writes in <http://www.parliament.ge/GENERAL/C_D/europe.htm> that for the ancient Greeks the boundary was the river Phasis, normally identified with the modern Rioni.
Gamkrelidze must be alluding to Herodotus, Histories, IV.45 <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Hdt.+4.45.1> but he omits some crucial details. Herodotus wrote that the border between Europe and Asia is not universally agreed upon, and that some say it's the Don, some the Kerch straits, and some (including Herodotus himself) the Phasis river. All these interpretations would mean that Tbilisi itself in Asia, even though Herodotus's preferred border (the Phasis/Rioni) would mean that some of Georgia is in Europe.
But wait, there's more! Gamkrelidze writes that some people identify the Phasis with the modern Chorokhi River. This extreme interpretation would put most of Georgia (including Tbilisi) in Europe (along with some of northeast Turkey, and perhaps Armenia and a few other places....). However, I haven't been able to find any other source that makes this claim: all the standard sources I have found identify the Phasis with the modern Rioni. This shouldn't be too surprising, since the Rioni flows into the Black Sea at Poti, and Poti's ancient name was also Phasis. I'm pretty dubious about any attempt to identify the Phasis with the Chorokhi, and if you read Gamkrelidze's article you'll see he's pretty dubious about that too.
While we're on the subject of ancient sources, Strabo, Geography, XI.1 <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Strab.+11.1.1> says flatly that the boundary between Europe and Asia is the Don.
To summarize the last few paragraphs: all the ancient sources I've found agree that Tbilisi itself is in Asia.
Some of Mr. Kolkhi's other arguments may be valid, but it's illogical to suggest that membership in the European Union makes a country European. The same argument was advanced for Cyprus earlier this year. By that reasoning, since France and the United States belonged to SEATO (the South-East Asia Treaty Organization), they must be Southeast Asian countries.
Aiet Kolkhi wrote:
If it's about politics (and I guess it is, since there has never been a strict border between Europe and Asia), than Europe would be the best place for present-day Georgia, considering the fact that Georgia is already a memeber of Council of Europe and may well be a memeber of EU in next years.
What about Turkey? Geographically and historically the main part of Turkey has always belonged to Asia, though the recent developments show that it will become a EU member state. Would it be correct to list a EU member state in Asia?
Gwillim Law
Aiet Kolkhi <aiet@qartuli.net> writes:
I agree that whenever the city Tbilisi is noted, it should be put in Asian region, whereas mentioning the country, maybe we should put it in Europe, or in Europe and Asia if possible.
OK, to do that, in my next proposed update I'll add a cross reference from the "europe" file to the "asia" file. We already do this sort of thing for Turkey and Russia, two other countries that straddle the boundary between Europe and Asia. I've drafted this change: # Georgia # Please see the "asia" file for Asia/Tbilisi. # Herodotus (Histories, IV.45) says Georgia north of the Phasis (now Rioni) # is in Europe. Our reference location Tbilisi is in the Asian part.
# Herodotus (Histories, IV.45) says Georgia north of the Phasis (now Rioni) # is in Europe. Our reference location Tbilisi is in the Asian part.
I agree with the approach, but I would not recommend the text you have. As I said, the best reference in all such cases is the UN Statistics Division: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm. That is, for example, what the proposed successor to RFC 3066 (language tags, as used in HTML and XML) is using. And according to that, Georgia is in Asia. Citing Herodotus is of some historical interest, but doesn't give you a good bright-line test. And if this issue were to come up again, because, say, some region separates from Russia, you have a bright-line test; you can just point at the UN site and say you are following whatever the UN uses. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eggert" <eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU> To: "Tz" <tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 12:23 Subject: Re: Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is no w GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4)
Aiet Kolkhi <aiet@qartuli.net> writes:
I agree that whenever the city Tbilisi is noted, it should be put in Asian region, whereas mentioning the country, maybe we should put it in Europe, or in Europe and Asia if possible.
OK, to do that, in my next proposed update I'll add a cross reference from the "europe" file to the "asia" file. We already do this sort of thing for Turkey and Russia, two other countries that straddle the boundary between Europe and Asia. I've drafted this change:
# Georgia # Please see the "asia" file for Asia/Tbilisi. # Herodotus (Histories, IV.45) says Georgia north of the Phasis (now Rioni) # is in Europe. Our reference location Tbilisi is in the Asian part.
Reading the following articles http://www.magtigsm.com/magazine/2000-3/2000-3-11.html and http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=0008C127-C322-1F80-B5758341... it seems that Georgia is not only the ancestor of all the Europians, but of Asians as well :) So one really can't destinguish Georgia as purely Europian or Asian country. Aiet
Paul Eggert said:
However, the upper horizontal line on that diagram roughly follows the Great Caucasus Mountains, which makes a reasonable boundary. The key question here is what continent Tbilisi is in, since that's the data point that the tz database uses.
Right. The GCM run along the border, as far as I can tell, putting all of Georgia in Asia.
Modern sources typically give either the crest of the Caucasus, or the Kuma-Manych Depression (which separates the Russian Plain from the North Caucasus), as the boundary between Europe and Asia in that region. This would put Tbilisi in Asia.
For ancient sources the story is more interesting. [...] To summarize the last few paragraphs: all the ancient sources I've found agree that Tbilisi itself is in Asia.
Interesting. Thanks. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: <clive@demon.net> | Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 Internet Expert | Home: <clive@davros.org> | Fax: +44 870 051 9937 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | |
The best source to go by is the UN Statistics Division: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm. And according to that, Georgia is in Asia. (BTW, can someone fill me in on why the TZIDs have an attached continent in the first place? The only thing I can see is that it may make the TZID slightly less ambiguous than just the city name -- but *only* marginally less ambiguous: see for example http://www.indo.com/cgi-bin/dist?place1=new+york. I'm not asking for it to be changed -- too much water under the bridge -- but I am curious as to the history.) Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI)" <olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov> To: "Tz (tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov)" <tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov> Cc: "Aiet Kolkhi" <aiet@qartuli.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 06:11 Subject: FW: Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is now GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4)
Aiet Kolkhi is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately.
The change of Georgia to GMT+3 is already reflected in tzdata2004e.tar.gz; the suggested move of Georgia to Europe from Asia is not.
--ado
-----Original Message----- From: Aiet Kolkhi [mailto:aiet@qartuli.net] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:39 PM To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is now GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4)
Hello,
There has been a time zone change in GEORGIA (capital: Tbilisi).
Georgia used to be a GMT+4 country, with DST rules just like Berlin or Paris, but since June 27, 2004, the newly-elected Parliament chose to set national time GEST one hour erlier, just like it was in the old days.
As a result, the timzone Georgia belongs is GMT+3 (+1 hour during Daylight Saiving Times, just like it is now). DST rules remain, i.e. DST starts on March 28 and ends on Oct. 31.
You may read BBC story about the change here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3843511.stm
Also, the information has been already corrected at timeanddate.com Here is the link to Tbilisi, Georgia: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=371
Another important notice: It would be more proper and politically correct to list Georgia in (East) Europe section and not in Asia. Georgia was considered Asian country due to improper information during Soviet times, but since the break-up of the Soviet, Georgia tends to be included in Europe rather than in Asia in more and more places. The BBC link I provided above for example also includes Georgia in Europian region. It is correct, since Georgia has always been more Europian country than Asian, with Christian religion since 4th AD and Europian traditions. Georgia is also a member of Europian Council and the EU flag is hanging next to the Georgian flag in front of Georgian Parliament :)
Please CC any inquiries/replies regarding this matter DIRECTLY to my address, as I'm not subscribed to this list.
Thank you.
-- Best regards, Aiet Kolkhi mailto:aiet@qartuli.net http://aiet.qartuli.net
"Mark Davis" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com> writes:
... can someone fill me in on why the TZIDs have an attached continent in the first place? The only thing I can see is that it may make the TZID slightly less ambiguous than just the city name
That's part of it. There were more mundane reasons, too. Subdividing into continents kept the "ls" listings on a single 24x80 screen. It also kept directory sizes small in the file system, which was a performance issue on the old SunOS box that I originally developed the naming scheme on. I didn't know that there would be political controversies about which continent a location resides in. I knew about Istanbul, but there it's clear which half of the city is European and which is Asian.
Ah, that explains it. Thanks. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eggert" <eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU> To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com> Cc: "Tz (tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov)" <tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 16:23 Subject: Re: Time Zone change in GEORGIA (Eastern Europe), time zone is now GMT+3 (no longer GMT+4)
"Mark Davis" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com> writes:
... can someone fill me in on why the TZIDs have an attached continent in the first place? The only thing I can see is that it may make the TZID slightly less ambiguous than just the city name
That's part of it. There were more mundane reasons, too. Subdividing into continents kept the "ls" listings on a single 24x80 screen. It also kept directory sizes small in the file system, which was a performance issue on the old SunOS box that I originally developed the naming scheme on.
I didn't know that there would be political controversies about which continent a location resides in. I knew about Istanbul, but there it's clear which half of the city is European and which is Asian.
participants (6)
-
Aiet Kolkhi -
Clive D.W. Feather -
Gwillim Law -
Mark Davis -
Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) -
Paul Eggert