FW: Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude didn't change time zone, same MSK+5. New Russia map without DST.
From: Bruce Camber [mailto:camber@smallbusinessschool.org] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 7:03 To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov; worldtimezone@yahoo.com; Derick Rethans Subject: Re: Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude didn't change time zone, same MSK+5. New Russia map without DST. Alexander, Derick, and the TZ group: Is there any one person (or subgroup of people) within the TZ Group who is (are) advocating that time zones be pulled out of the UTC offset and that time zones be known simply as TZ 1-to-24? My reference on this topic is within the right column of this page: http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2424.html Is this a silly concept? Is so, I would be very interested to learn why.. Thank you. Warmly, Bruce Camber http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2646.html On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Alexander Krivenyshev <worldtimezone@yahoo.com> wrote: Derick Rethans <tz <at> derickrethans.nl> writes:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Arthur David Olson wrote:
Here are proposed changes to the time zone package; the executive summary:
asia Russia to use permanent DST after its start in 2011. europe Russia to use permanent DST after its start in 2011. Irkutsk changes to Moscow+4 at start of DST in 2011. Ulan-Ude stays at Moscow+5 at start of DST in 2011 (new zone).
Did you perhaps miss those in the 2011e update? I know that at least Ulan-Ude didn't make it in.
cheers, Derick
Irkutsk stays at Moscow +5 (UTC+9) at start of DST in 2011. Ulan-Ude stays at Moscow+5 (UTC+9) at start of DST in 2011. Irkutsk region (with the rest of Russia) goes to Daylight saving time March 27, 2011. http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_russia30.html and new Russia map (without DST): http://www.worldtimezone.com/time-russia12.php http://www.worldtimezone.com/time-russia24.php Alexander Krivenyshev, http://www.worldtimezone.com
"Is there any one person (or subgroup of people) within the TZ Group who is (are) advocating that time zones be pulled out of the UTC offset and that time zones be known simply as TZ 1-to-24? My reference on this topic is within the right column of this page: http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2424.html Is this a silly concept? Is so, I would be very interested to learn why.. Thank you. Warmly, Bruce Camber http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2646.html" Well, the first thing that jumps to mind is that not every place on earth is in an integer time zone. For instance, that very page lists India as in both Tz7 and Tz8; it's actually in what their scheme would be Tz7½. Other notable places on non-integer time offsets are Newfoundland in 16½, Venezuela in 17½, and the middle third of Australia in 3½, not to mention Nepal in 7¼. Then there's the issue of daylight-savings time. The time difference from Melbourne, Florida to Melbourne, Victoria is 15 hours when both countries are on summer time at once, but 16 in the Northern winter and 14 in the Southern winter...
On Apr 5, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Andy Lipscomb wrote:
"Is there any one person (or subgroup of people) within the TZ Group who is (are) advocating that time zones be pulled out of the UTC offset and that time zones be known simply as TZ 1-to-24?
My reference on this topic is within the right column of this page: http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2424.html
Is this a silly concept? Is so, I would be very interested to learn why.. Thank you.
Yes, it's a silly concept. That whole page is junk. Clearly the author doesn't understand the subject matter at all. I've never heard of the organization you quoted; given what I see here I don't think I'll ever look at them again. paul
From the logo at the top of the page:
"Television for PBS and the Voice of America" Our tax dollars at waste. :) (So, what else is new?)
-----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paul_koning@Dell.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 7:39 AM To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude didn't change time zone, same MSK+5. New Russia map without DST.
On Apr 5, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Andy Lipscomb wrote:
"Is there any one person (or subgroup of people) within the TZ Group who is (are) advocating that time zones be pulled out of the UTC offset and that time zones be known simply as TZ 1-to-24?
My reference on this topic is within the right column of this page: http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2424.html
Is this a silly concept? Is so, I would be very interested to learn why.. Thank you.
Yes, it's a silly concept.
That whole page is junk. Clearly the author doesn't understand the subject matter at all.
I've never heard of the organization you quoted; given what I see here I don't think I'll ever look at them again.
paul
* Paul Goyette <pgoyette@juniper.net> [2011-04-05 07:52 -0700]:
From the logo at the top of the page:
"Television for PBS and the Voice of America"
Our tax dollars at waste. :)
(So, what else is new?)
Well, poking about on that site I can find "Bruce and Hattie are independent producers. They do not receive, nor do they seek, public funds to produce the series. IBM was the founding sponsor in 1994. They raise money from national sponsors such as AT&T, Business Week, Forbes, Microsoft, Thomson Learning, the United States Postal Service and regional sponsors such as Verizon. Throughout the years, Dun & Bradstreet, MassMutual, Travelers-Citicorp and others have been national sponsors and many local businesses have been local sponsors." http://smallbusinessschool.org/page20.html I've never heard of their show. Maybe it doesn't appear on my local PBS station. -- Breen Mullins bpm@sdf.org
On Apr 5, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Andy Lipscomb wrote:
"Is there any one person (or subgroup of people) within the TZ Group who is (are) advocating that time zones be pulled out of the UTC offset and that time zones be known simply as TZ 1-to-24?
My reference on this topic is within the right column of this page: http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2424.html
Is this a silly concept? Is so, I would be very interested to learn why.. Thank you.
It is obvious there would still be issues for locations that arent exactly on the specified 24 zones, or would still be in negatively-numbered zones. But if such a suggestion started to be considered seriously, the following three suggestions for further improvement immediately come to mind: 1) The first zone at the date line should be called zone 0:00, not tz 1. 2) To ease the conversion from longitudes, all geographic longitudes should then be moved, at the same time, to the dateline, measuring all longitudes as positive from 0, as is done for most other astronomical measurements. 3) Finally, we should also mandate that all world clocks start to measure time in arcseconds, arcminutes and degrees instead of seconds, minutes and hours to insure that no one has to divide by 15 ever again. :) Sounds like way too big a change for the very minimal advantage of having less negatively-number zones, though it might temporarily stimulate the economy for mapmakers, clock makers, gps vendors, geography teachers, and insurance companies, if that is the primary goal. :) -- [X] Strategic Vote - No More Harper Government
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 17:22, David Patte <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
But if such a suggestion started to be considered seriously, the following three suggestions for further improvement immediately come to mind: 1) The first zone at the date line should be called zone 0:00, not tz 1. 2) To ease the conversion from longitudes, all geographic longitudes should then be moved, at the same time, to the dateline, measuring all longitudes as positive from 0, as is done for most other astronomical measurements. 3) Finally, we should also mandate that all world clocks start to measure time in arcseconds, arcminutes and degrees instead of seconds, minutes and hours to insure that no one has to divide by 15 ever again. :)
Sounds like way too big a change for the very minimal advantage of having less negatively-number zones, though it might temporarily stimulate the economy for mapmakers, clock makers, gps vendors, geography teachers, and insurance companies, if that is the primary goal. :)
You'd also want to specify that the south pole is latitude 0 and the north pole latitude 180, if you want to get rid of negative numbers on maps and GPS devices. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>
But if such a suggestion started to be considered seriously, the following three suggestions for further improvement immediately come to mind: 1) The first zone at the date line should be called zone 0:00, not tz
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 17:22, David Patte <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote: 1.
2) To ease the conversion from longitudes, all geographic longitudes should then be moved, at the same time, to the dateline, measuring all longitudes as positive from 0, as is done for most other astronomical measurements. 3) Finally, we should also mandate that all world clocks start to measure time in arcseconds, arcminutes and degrees instead of seconds, minutes and hours to insure that no one has to divide by 15 ever again. :)
Sounds like way too big a change for the very minimal advantage of having less negatively-number zones, though it might temporarily stimulate the economy for mapmakers, clock makers, gps vendors, geography teachers, and insurance companies, if that is the primary goal. :)
You'd also want to specify that the south pole is latitude 0 and the north pole latitude 180, if you want to get rid of negative numbers on maps and GPS devices.
None of which addresses the problems encountered by the fact that the date line isn't a line at all, but has several zigs and zags. :)
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 17:32, Paul Goyette <pgoyette@juniper.net> wrote:
None of which addresses the problems encountered by the fact that the date line isn't a line at all, but has several zigs and zags.
:)
True. The obvious solutions is to get rid of time zones (and summer time!) entirely and have everyone run on UTC. Might as well decide on a unified currency and language as well while we're at it. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>
On 2011-04-05 11:37, Philip Newton wrote:
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 17:32, Paul Goyette<pgoyette@juniper.net> wrote:
None of which addresses the problems encountered by the fact that the date line isn't a line at all, but has several zigs and zags.
:) True. The obvious solutions is to get rid of time zones (and summer time!) entirely and have everyone run on UTC. Might as well decide on a unified currency and language as well while we're at it.
Cheers, Philip
I'd suggest UT1, leap seconds are also confusing and hard to implement in any clocks; though I hear that most COBOL programmers haven't had much work since 2000. -- [X] Strategic Vote - No More Harper Government
Alexander, Derick, and the TZ group:
Is there any one person (or subgroup of people) within the TZ Group who is (are) advocating that time zones be pulled out of the UTC offset and that time zones be known simply as TZ 1-to-24?
My reference on this topic is within the right column of this page: http://smallbusinessschool.org/page2424.html
I don't think anyone in the "TZ Group", as you call it, would be that silly.
Is this a silly concept? Is so, I would be very interested to learn why..
Yes. Off the top of my head: (1) What about places that are *ahead* of your "TZ#1"? Right now it's 02:09 in New Zealand, western Kiribati, and Fiji, but it's 03:09 in central Kiribati ("TZ#0"?) and 04:09 in eastern Kiribati ("TZ#minus1"?). (2) What about all the half-hour zones, such as Norfolk Island, Southern Australia, and India? India is *not* in your "TZ#7". (3) What about all the fractional zones, such as Chatham Island (currently 02:54)? (4) What about summer time? Are you going to say that I shift twice a year between TZ#12 and TZ#13? (5) You don't appear to understand what UTC actually is. Very simply, time zones are far more complicated than can be addressed by a simple numbering from 1 to 24. Times relative to UTC change twice a year in many countries, and *not* all on the same date. Even your examples are wrong: right now it's 02:09 in New Zealand and 09:09 in New Orleans. That's a 17 hour difference, not an 18 hour one.
Now, is there any good reason that England defines UTC 0 and the rest of the world is UTC + or - 1-to-12?
Because all the major nations of the world, including the USA, agreed that the reference point for longitude (i.e. the boundary between "east" and "west") should be Greenwich, in east London. When formal definitions of time were being agreed, they were originally astronomy-based and so it was sensible to use the same reference point. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
participants (8)
-
Andy Lipscomb -
Breen Mullins -
Clive D.W. Feather -
David Patte -
Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E] -
Paul Goyette -
Paul Koning -
Philip Newton