I also disagree. A policy like this would punish end users, who are not to blame for any poor planning. Debbie

On Mar 27, 2023, at 10:00 AM, John Sauter via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:

On Mon, 2023-03-27 at 12:46 -0400, Howard Hinnant via tz wrote:

...

Recent events have brought to my attention the need to put a damper on chaos caused by poor planning. When governments give little notice to changes in time zone rules, this is not a problem that this group can fix, or should even try.

I propose a minimum period of 30 days between successive IANA tz database releases. The train leaves the station no more frequently than once every 30 days (and will probably be less frequent). Whatever information is solid before the release date makes it on the train. Otherwise it can wait another 30 days (at least).

My recommendation is in part based on this common statement:

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part

https://www.incirlik.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/303134/poor-pl...

This week’s chaos isn’t unusual. In fact it is normal, especially for some countries. If they can’t be bothered to make a plan in advance and stick with it, I don’t see why this group of volunteers needs to compensate for that. Let the politicians lie in the beds they make.

Howard

I don't agree. I think the maintainers of the time zone data base should have the flexibility to release an updated version whenever, in their considered judgment, they feel a release is necessary.

An obvious case is a serious typographical error. As soon as it is discovered, even if only a day after a release, it should be possible to correct it. I am not referring to a typographical error in a comment but one that causes the time to be incorrect.

Also, it is sometimes helpful to make bad political decisions very visible. Doing so can encourage the makers of bad decisions to mend their ways. John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) -- get my PGP public key with gpg --locate-external-keys John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com

Also I forgot to mention that most vendors have a significant delay in updating their tz database, which means that even if a country provides notice to the maintainers one month prior to a change, it will not be reflected on other devices in a timely manner. This makes it even more important to issue updates in a timely manner without delay. On 3/27/23 20:13, Rany Hany via tz wrote:

While I understand your frustration with recent chaos caused by poor planning, I have to respectfully reject your proposal for the following reasons:

Firstly, implementing a 30-day minimum period between releases would punish users who have outdated tzdata solely because they are ruled by incompetent governments. While it may be easy to blame politicians for poor planning, citizens and businesses should not be penalized for factors beyond their control.

Secondly, deliberately making the latest tzinfo inaccurate would only lead to more issues rather than solve them. Accurate and up-to-date time zone information is essential for global communication and coordination, and any intentional inaccuracy would create confusion and further chaos.

Best

On 3/27/23 19:46, Howard Hinnant via tz wrote:

...

Recent events have brought to my attention the need to put a damper on chaos caused by poor planning.  When governments give little notice to changes in time zone rules, this is not a problem that this group can fix, or should even try.

I propose a minimum period of 30 days between successive IANA tz database releases.  The train leaves the station no more frequently than once every 30 days (and will probably be less frequent).  Whatever information is solid before the release date makes it on the train.  Otherwise it can wait another 30 days (at least).

My recommendation is in part based on this common statement:

     Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part https://www.incirlik.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/303134/poor-pl...

This week’s chaos isn’t unusual.  In fact it is normal, especially for some countries.  If they can’t be bothered to make a plan in advance and stick with it, I don’t see why this group of volunteers needs to compensate for that.  Let the politicians lie in the beds they make.

Howard

On Mon, 2023-03-27 at 20:37 +0300, Ali Al Amine via tz wrote:

The problem is that currently this database is expected to change immediately, as well as vendors are expected to release asap (no expectations, just asap). Having a clear, structured release timeline, and rules that would structure such a mess, would remove the risk of such a thing to happen in the future (or at least it would attempt to organize it). Howard's or my suggestions are trying to setup such a structure. 

@Rany Yes but that's why there should be a minimum of some sort, a minimum that has a leeway in adding the tz database, as well as for the vendors to update. That way all updates are synchronized as expected by the time people go forward with the change.

@Deborah I'm from lebanon, and this is how institutions worked with it with such a short notice: - Banks didn't go forward with the change with international transactions as to not have confusion with the transactions with the international banks and their systems - Apps that rely on cloud providers (like our case) didn't know what to work with as the vendors cannot update on the fly. We contacted AWS for our case as an example and what they told us is that there is no timeline for when the update would happen, so we need to change our codebase to take both into consideration as it might happen at any time and our code should handle the inconsistencies that appear. - Systems that rely on 3rd party vendors (for example quickbooks for accounting, or any software the businesses are relying on) are reporting everything in the wrong date as they didn't update, and they also don't have a timeline for when the update will happen.

There is nothing that IANA can do to solve the problems you are describing. You need to push back on the politicians--explain to them that their decision-making procedures are causing harm to their people. Ask them, not IANA, to give enough time between the announcement of such a policy and its effective date that updates can be synchronized. John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) -- get my PGP public key with gpg --locate-external-keys John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com

On Mon, 2023-03-27 at 21:10 +0300, Ali Al Amine via tz wrote:

I do agree that it's not IANA's responsibility to push back against governments, but that doesn't deny the fact that a lot of governments are not well organized and such a decision can happen because two people discussed it in some meeting and that became the decision to go by (a proof of that is that this is not the first time a thing like this happens on this group as Howard said). If you have a way to fix every government on earth, then be my guest. Today it's Lebanon, tomorrow it'll be another unorganized country that would do the same thing, and the same frustrations for people that do not have a say on that government (maintainers of this repository and every vendor needing to propagate the change because 'asap').

I do understand that IANA is responsible to keep its databases updated at all times, but this specific database has a lot of very meaningful implications, and its own limitations with the vendor update times. Applying changes on a whim is definitely not the way to go because of the possible repercussions.

But it is IANA's responsibility to push back against governments, and IANA does. Unfortunately, governments do not generally respond well to pressure, particularly from those not being governed by them. That is why it is important for the people of Lebanon to pressure their government. Yes, some governments are not well-organized, but we should still try to persuade them to mend their ways. It is better to mount a futile effort than to give up. The maintainers who are impacted by time zone changes with little notice are not my concern--they accepted the burden when they volunteered. Similarly, the vendors accepted this as a cost of doing business. My concern is for the people of Lebanon who are harmed in the ways you described in your response to Deborah. John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) -- get my PGP public key with gpg --locate-external-keys John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com

On 2023-03-27 15:31, Kim Davies via tz wrote:

Quoting Robert Elz via tz on Tuesday March 28, 2023:

...

The only thing we can do is attempt to educate and influence the decision makers, and their advisors, of the impacts of these kinds of actions, and attempt to convince them to make considered decisions, with plenty of advance notice.

I think this is correct. It is something we've been trying to do in the background as opportunities have presented themselves. I think the flurry of activity over the last month or so will inform a useful case study for future discussions.

My ICANN colleagues in the Middle East have suggested convening a meeting of responsible policy makers in the region to educate them on the practicalities of the time zone database and best practices for future policy making. If this idea comes to fruition hopefully we can promote knowledge building on sound practices, although sometimes the government bureaucracy is fully aware but politicians will make decisions regardless.

Perhaps emphasize how *stupid* these actions make the politicians involved look globally, and how widely they will be mocked, as these are great stories for opposition politicians, inter-/national broadsheets and especially tabloids, as well as hostile foreign government controlled media, providing opportunities to denigrate the government, people, and country. It is not as if DST or potential disruptors, such as Ramadan, school terms, or national holiday dates, to name some previous influences, are not known months in advance. Inability to handle these trivial common changes, also reflects badly on the country, and how badly it is likely to handle major international obligations, such as financial support, thus requiring close international control, supervision, and monitoring. To make the points, it would be advisable to include: global finance folks from the IMF or WB who can demonstrate economic impacts; IATA folks who issue large fines for short notice changes affecting times to explain travel impacts; software vendors involved on this list: at least Apple, Google, Microsoft?, Oracle; to provide perspective on how long it takes to validate all the details of changes from government sources, apply it, build, test, then distribute updates to corporate and end user desktops and servers; and telcos for considerations for mobiles. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

On 2023-03-27 22:55, John Hawkinson via tz wrote:

Brian Inglis wrote on Mon, 27 Mar 2023 at 18:24:36 EDT:

...

Perhaps emphasize how *stupid* these actions make the politicians involved look globally, and how widely they will be mocked, as these are great stories for opposition politicians, inter-/national broadsheets and especially tabloids, as well as hostile foreign government controlled media, providing opportunities to denigrate the government, people, and country. Recognizing that policymakers and technical staffers and even politicans do read this list and its archive, language like this is setting ourselves up for defeat. Those who do read the list will likely agree! Sometimes managers and executives need a reality check - see Dilbert PHB. We want them to see they will set themselves up for defeat if they ignore the advice.

Do you think that any politicians may actually attend, rather than delegate to staff, or that those *not attending* will be influenced by our reasoned arguments? Point out the actual effects on how they appear, their status and reputation, and will be regarded and treated, and it may be passed along as a case study in "how to kill your credibility and reputation". Showing headlines with links to BBC, Times, FT, NYT, WSJ, WP, AlJazeera too in this case, articles may be enough, with some verbal reinforcement, to make the point. We are unlikely in any case to have any influence on those with giant egos, like Boris and Donnie, who live and believe in their own fantasies, and that the world will jump because they make a decision. My experience has been that they often will never notice if their unsound decisions are just quietly ignored - they assume they will be done, but rarely check! That would have been the best approach to have been taken by Lebanese media. ;^> If they become aware, they may even thank you, or you can respond like HAL 9000. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry