Re: [tz] Antarctic research base Vostok local time
On 2023-12-18 19:14, АПС АКУЛОВ wrote:
Do you have a public announcement on the web, or some other source, that we can cite? Well AARI weekly publishes Antarctic events summaries here: https://www.aari.ru/press-center/news/rae .
But I am not sure if my case will be mentioned there.
This web page still says that Vostok time is UTC+07: https://www.aari.ru/ekspeditsii/rossiyskaya-antarkticheskaya-ekspeditsiya-(r... Could you please fix that web page? That would help confirm the change, so that when people ask us for our source, we can direct them to aari.ru.
Does "00:00" mean 00:00 local time, or 00:00 UTC?
My bad, sorry, I missed this point.
Local time, of source.
OK. Did clocks jump back from 00:00 today to 22:00 the previous day, or from 02:00 to 00:00 today? Also, could you please briefly say why Vostok changed from UTC+07 to UTC+05? I would like to document this in commentary.
Has local time at Vostok been UTC+6 ever since 1957, or has it changed before?
No. At least since my antarctic career start, 10 years ago, Vostok base has UTC+7.
Ouch. TZDB has been wrong for Vostok for at least 10 years. I will try to correct this. (I hope you have not been at Vostok for 10 years! I'd rather live in Siberia, or even in Nebraska. I can joke about this, as I was born in Nebraska....) Attached is a draft patch to TZDB to implement these changes. Please let us know if you see problems with it. I have not installed this patch into the TZDB development repository as it is still preliminary.
This web page still says that Vostok time is UTC+07: Well it ts evidently that nobody cares about antarctic timezones but you and me.
You see, in fact it doesn't matter which timezone to use at the very North or South — half year it is sunny, half year it is dark. So polar men have no problems with changing timezone.
Could you please fix that web page?
Me — not. I''ll try to find the person who can.
or from 02:00 to 00:00 today
This.
could you please briefly say why Vostok changed Convenience. We constantly interact with Progress base, with company who builds new wintering station, with sledge convoys, with aviation — they all use UTC+5. Besides, difference between Moscow time is just 2 hours now, not 4.
(I hope you have not been at Vostok for 10 years! I'd rather live in Siberia, or even in Nebraska. I can joke about this, as I was born in Nebraska....) I have not been to Nebraska but I can joke about it too :) If it matters — I was burn in Murmansk, a state far beyond the Arctic Circle; this is my fifth antarctic wintering; fourth wintering at Vostok base; second as the chief of the base. And my personal achieve is eighty degrees sub zero.
Please let us know if you see problems with it
No problems, thanx. Comments show that polar people may treat timezones rather arbitrary. 19.12.2023 14:42, Paul Eggert пишет:
On 2023-12-18 19:14, АПС АКУЛОВ wrote:
>Do you have a public announcement on the web, or some other source, that we can cite? Well AARI weekly publishes Antarctic events summaries here: https://www.aari.ru/press-center/news/rae .
But I am not sure if my case will be mentioned there.
This web page still says that Vostok time is UTC+07:
https://www.aari.ru/ekspeditsii/rossiyskaya-antarkticheskaya-ekspeditsiya-(r...
Could you please fix that web page? That would help confirm the change, so that when people ask us for our source, we can direct them to aari.ru.
>Does "00:00" mean 00:00 local time, or 00:00 UTC?
My bad, sorry, I missed this point.
Local time, of source.
OK. Did clocks jump back from 00:00 today to 22:00 the previous day, or from 02:00 to 00:00 today?
Also, could you please briefly say why Vostok changed from UTC+07 to UTC+05? I would like to document this in commentary.
>Has local time at Vostok been UTC+6 ever since 1957, or has it changed before?
No. At least since my antarctic career start, 10 years ago, Vostok base has UTC+7.
Ouch. TZDB has been wrong for Vostok for at least 10 years. I will try to correct this.
(I hope you have not been at Vostok for 10 years! I'd rather live in Siberia, or even in Nebraska. I can joke about this, as I was born in Nebraska....)
Attached is a draft patch to TZDB to implement these changes. Please let us know if you see problems with it. I have not installed this patch into the TZDB development repository as it is still preliminary.
-- УВАЖЕНИЕМ= АПС АКУЛОВ= 69 РАЭ СТ ВОСТОК-
On 2023-12-19 01:31, АПС АКУЛОВ wrote:
Could you please fix that web page?
Me — not. I''ll try to find the person who can.
Thank you for this, and for checking the draft patch I emailed you a few hours ago.
or from 02:00 to 00:00 today
This.
Oh, that means the draft patch was wrong, as I had guessed the other way. I corrected this (and updated a few comments) in the attached updated patch, which I installed into the development repository. It looks like we'll need a new TZDB release soon, since it's currently wrong for Vostok. Also, it has a leap second file that will expire in a few days, and we should publish the Ittoqqortoormiit change soon anyway since it takes effect in March.
On Tuesday 2023-12-19 11:04 -0800, Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
-# From Lee Hotz (2001-03-08): -# I queried the folks at Columbia who spent the summer at Vostok and this is -# what they had to say about time there: -# "in the US Camp (East Camp) we have been on New Zealand (McMurdo) -# time, which is 12 hours ahead of GMT. The Russian Station Vostok was -# 6 hours behind that (although only 2 miles away, i.e. 6 hours ahead -# of GMT). This is a time zone I think two hours east of Moscow. The -# natural time zone is in between the two: 8 hours ahead of GMT."
One observation about this 22-year-old quote: New Zealand (then and now) observed summer time for roughly half of the year, so "which is 12 hours ahead of GMT" was only correct for the southern hemisphere winter; in the summer New Zealand was 13 hours ahead. If the observation of a 6 hour difference between McMurdo and Vostok was in the southern hemisphere summer while New Zealand was on summer time, that observation could be consistent with Vostok observing UTC+7 at the time. -David -- 𝄞 L. David Baron https://dbaron.org/ 𝄂 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)
Let me comment these comments too.
+# From Craig Mundell (1994-12-15): +# http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/antarctica/QA/computers/Directions,Time,ZIP +# Vostok, which is one of the Russian stations, is set on the same +# time as Moscow, Russia.
See, the wintering team made Vostok time synchronized with MSK time, that is convenient for communications with AARI. Two years ago I thought over an idea to change Vostok timezone to MSK but I refused that as TV news program wouldn't stream at our lunch time anymore. That time we had an only TV channel, now we have four.
If the observation of a 6 hour difference between McMurdo and Vostok was in the southern hemisphere summer while
New Zealand was on summer time, that observation could be consistent with Vostok observing UTC+7 at the time.
I told I change Vostok timezone for comfortable communications with Progress base that is the center of Russian Antarctic logistics. Years ago the center of our logistics was Mirny base — sledge convoys and aviation started from there. Have a look at Mirny's timezone: https://www.aari.ru/ekspeditsii/rossiyskaya-antarkticheskaya-ekspeditsiya-(r... It is UTC+7. 20.12.2023 08:34, L. David Baron пишет:
On Tuesday 2023-12-19 11:04 -0800, Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
-# From Lee Hotz (2001-03-08): -# I queried the folks at Columbia who spent the summer at Vostok and this is -# what they had to say about time there: -# "in the US Camp (East Camp) we have been on New Zealand (McMurdo) -# time, which is 12 hours ahead of GMT. The Russian Station Vostok was -# 6 hours behind that (although only 2 miles away, i.e. 6 hours ahead -# of GMT). This is a time zone I think two hours east of Moscow. The -# natural time zone is in between the two: 8 hours ahead of GMT." One observation about this 22-year-old quote: New Zealand (then and now) observed summer time for roughly half of the year, so "which is 12 hours ahead of GMT" was only correct for the southern hemisphere winter; in the summer New Zealand was 13 hours ahead.
If the observation of a 6 hour difference between McMurdo and Vostok was in the southern hemisphere summer while New Zealand was on summer time, that observation could be consistent with Vostok observing UTC+7 at the time.
-David
-- УВАЖЕНИЕМ= АПС АКУЛОВ= 69 РАЭ СТ ВОСТОК-
On Dec 19, 2023, at 9:35 PM, АПС АКУЛОВ via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Two years ago I thought over an idea to change Vostok timezone to MSK but I refused that as TV news program wouldn't stream at our lunch time anymore. That time we had an only TV channel, now we have four.
Civil timekeeping, where the mundane meets the celestial (and indeed, even the cosmic). Cheers! |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer | | | Paravel Systems | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Never take two chronometers to sea. Always take one or three, | | otherwise you'll never be sure what time it is. | | | | -- Anonymous | |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
On 2023-12-19 19:35, АПС АКУЛОВ via tz wrote:
20.12.2023 08:34, L. David Baron пишет:
On Tuesday 2023-12-19 11:04 -0800, Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
-# From Lee Hotz (2001-03-08): -# I queried the folks at Columbia who spent the summer at Vostok and this is -# what they had to say about time there: -# "in the US Camp (East Camp) we have been on New Zealand (McMurdo) -# time, which is 12 hours ahead of GMT. The Russian Station Vostok was -# 6 hours behind that (although only 2 miles away, i.e. 6 hours ahead -# of GMT). This is a time zone I think two hours east of Moscow. The -# natural time zone is in between the two: 8 hours ahead of GMT."
One observation about this 22-year-old quote: New Zealand (then and now) observed summer time for roughly half of the year, so "which is 12 hours ahead of GMT" was only correct for the southern hemisphere winter; in the summer New Zealand was 13 hours ahead.
If the observation of a 6 hour difference between McMurdo and Vostok was in the southern hemisphere summer while New Zealand was on summer time, that observation could be consistent with Vostok observing UTC+7 at the time.
Let me comment these comments too.
+# From Craig Mundell (1994-12-15): +# http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/antarctica/QA/computers/Directions,Time,ZIP +# Vostok, which is one of the Russian stations, is set on the same +# time as Moscow, Russia.
See, the wintering team made Vostok time synchronized with MSK time, that is convenient for communications with AARI.
Two years ago I thought over an idea to change Vostok timezone to MSK but I refused that as TV news program wouldn't stream at our lunch time anymore. That time we had an only TV channel, now we have four.
If the observation of a 6 hour difference between McMurdo and Vostok was in the southern hemisphere summer while
New Zealand was on summer time, that observation could be consistent with Vostok observing UTC+7 at the time.
I told I change Vostok timezone for comfortable communications with Progress base that is the center of Russian Antarctic logistics. Years ago the center of our logistics was Mirny base — sledge convoys and aviation started from there. Have a look at Mirny's timezone: https://www.aari.ru/ekspeditsii/rossiyskaya-antarkticheskaya-ekspeditsiya-(r... It is UTC+7.
Below shows the currently defined Antarctic manned bases and stations. Are there others you know of which are used and should be added, e.g Progress, Mirny, and do you have links to their time practices and population numbers and schedules? This might mean that we define Mirny UTC+7 and Progress UTC+5 rules and/or zones with Vostok switching between them. $ grep Antarctica/ {a*a,zone*.tab,back????} | sort -t/ -k2 zone1970.tab:#@AQ Antarctica/ zone1970.tab:# For example, the comment "#@AQ<tab>Antarctica/" means the country code backward:Link Pacific/Auckland Antarctica/McMurdo backward:Link Pacific/Auckland Antarctica/South_Pole antarctica:Zone Antarctica/Casey 0 - -00 1969 zone.tab:AQ -6617+11031 Antarctica/Casey Casey zone1970.tab:AQ -6617+11031 Antarctica/Casey Casey antarctica:Zone Antarctica/Davis 0 - -00 1957 Jan 13 zone.tab:AQ -6835+07758 Antarctica/Davis Davis zone1970.tab:AQ -6835+07758 Antarctica/Davis Davis backzone:Zone Antarctica/DumontDUrville 0 - -00 1947 zone.tab:AQ -6640+14001 Antarctica/DumontDUrville Dumont-d'Urville australasia:Zone Antarctica/Macquarie 0 - -00 1899 Nov zone.tab:AU -5430+15857 Antarctica/Macquarie Macquarie Island zone1970.tab:AU -5430+15857 Antarctica/Macquarie Macquarie Island antarctica:Zone Antarctica/Mawson 0 - -00 1954 Feb 13 zone.tab:AQ -6736+06253 Antarctica/Mawson Mawson zone1970.tab:AQ -6736+06253 Antarctica/Mawson Mawson backzone:Link Antarctica/McMurdo Antarctica/South_Pole backzone:Zone Antarctica/McMurdo 0 - -00 1956 zone.tab:AQ -7750+16636 Antarctica/McMurdo New Zealand time - McMurdo, South Pole zone.tab:AQ -6448-06406 Antarctica/Palmer Palmer zone1970.tab:AQ -6448-06406 Antarctica/Palmer Palmer antarctica:# See 'southamerica' for Antarctica/Palmer, since it uses South American DST. backward:Link Pacific/Port_Moresby Antarctica/DumontDUrville backward:Link Asia/Riyadh Antarctica/Syowa antarctica:Zone Antarctica/Rothera 0 - -00 1976 Dec 1 zone.tab:AQ -6734-06808 Antarctica/Rothera Rothera zone1970.tab:AQ -6734-06808 Antarctica/Rothera Rothera backzone:Zone Antarctica/Syowa 0 - -00 1957 Jan 29 zone.tab:AQ -690022+0393524 Antarctica/Syowa Syowa antarctica:Zone Antarctica/Troll 0 - -00 2005 Feb 12 zone.tab:AQ -720041+0023206 Antarctica/Troll Troll zone1970.tab:AQ -720041+0023206 Antarctica/Troll Troll backward:Link Asia/Urumqi Antarctica/Vostok backzone:Zone Antarctica/Vostok 0 - -00 1957 Dec 16 zone.tab:AQ -7824+10654 Antarctica/Vostok Vostok -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
On 2023-12-20 14:47, Brian Inglis via tz wrote:
This might mean that we define Mirny UTC+7 and Progress UTC+5 rules and/or zones with Vostok switching between them.
Given that we mishandled Vostok for decades, I'm not optimistic about taking on more work in that area. Evidently it's of limited utility. Perhaps we should let sleeping dogs lie.
On 2023-12-20 18:18, Paul Eggert wrote:
On 2023-12-20 14:47, Brian Inglis via tz wrote:
This might mean that we define Mirny UTC+7 and Progress UTC+5 rules and/or zones with Vostok switching between them.
Given that we mishandled Vostok for decades, I'm not optimistic about taking on more work in that area. Evidently it's of limited utility. Perhaps we should let sleeping dogs lie.
I think the project no longer has that option, as it is now installed and used on every mobile phone and laptop everywhere in the world, and every time there are any issues, they seem to manage to find this list via IANA, and expect affiliates of that organization to be responsive, as we are all part of the Internet's global bureaucracy, with unlimited funds, manpower, and time! ;^> Just you try to convince them that it has all been done by a total of 3 part time volunteers, with a maximum of 2 at any time, for over 37 years! Although they have been heartily supported, and sometimes hindered, by 1000s of contributors of opinions, wishes, and some facts, expressed in ~25k emails over that period, with links starting in 1995. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
On 2023-12-20 20:00, Brian Inglis via tz wrote:
Given that we mishandled Vostok for decades, I'm not optimistic about taking on more work in that area. Evidently it's of limited utility. Perhaps we should let sleeping dogs lie.
I think the project no longer has that option,
We don't have the option to remove existing entries; they will be retained indefinitely, if only as Links. We do have the option to not try to track down the complete time zone history of every Antarctic base that has ever existed. Such histories are in many cases simply not available - the people who knew what time it was either don't remember now or have passed away, and there are no reliable records. And the utility of such an effort would be questionable.
On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 2:04 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-12-19 01:31, АПС АКУЛОВ wrote: ...
It looks like we'll need a new TZDB release soon, since it's currently wrong for Vostok. Also, it has a leap second file that will expire in a few days, and we should publish the Ittoqqortoormiit change soon anyway since it takes effect in March.
Hi Paul, When do you plan to release a new update? Thank You, Patsy
On 2023-12-19 02:31, АПС АКУЛОВ via tz wrote:
This web page still says that Vostok time is UTC+07: Well it ts evidently that nobody cares about antarctic timezones but you and me. You see, in fact it doesn't matter which timezone to use at the very North or South — half year it is sunny, half year it is dark. So polar men have no problems with changing timezone. Could you please fix that web page?> Me — not. I''ll try to find the person who can. or from 02:00 to 00:00 today This. could you please briefly say why Vostok changed Convenience. We constantly interact with Progress base, with company who builds new wintering station, with sledge convoys, with aviation — they all use UTC+5. Besides, difference between Moscow time is just 2 hours now, not 4.
It appears that Progress base should definitely also have an entry: https://dxnews.com/ri1ane/ Site and articles also available in Russian.
(I hope you have not been at Vostok for 10 years! I'd rather live in Siberia, or even in Nebraska. I can joke about this, as I was born in Nebraska....) I have not been to Nebraska but I can joke about it too :) If it matters — I was burn in Murmansk, a state far beyond the Arctic Circle; this is my fifth antarctic wintering; fourth wintering at Vostok base; second as the chief of the base. And my personal achieve is eighty degrees sub zero.
Please let us know if you see problems with it
No problems, thanx. Comments show that polar people may treat timezones rather arbitrary.
Also amateur radio call signs - Russian Antarctic start RI1AN* https://dxnews.com/?s=Antarctica&lang=2 Site and articles also available in Russian.
19.12.2023 14:42, Paul Eggert пишет:
On 2023-12-18 19:14, АПС АКУЛОВ wrote:
>Do you have a public announcement on the web, or some other source, that we can cite? Well AARI weekly publishes Antarctic events summaries here: https://www.aari.ru/press-center/news/rae .
But I am not sure if my case will be mentioned there.
This web page still says that Vostok time is UTC+07:
https://www.aari.ru/ekspeditsii/rossiyskaya-antarkticheskaya-ekspeditsiya-(r...
Could you please fix that web page? That would help confirm the change, so that when people ask us for our source, we can direct them to aari.ru.
>Does "00:00" mean 00:00 local time, or 00:00 UTC?
My bad, sorry, I missed this point.
Local time, of source.
OK. Did clocks jump back from 00:00 today to 22:00 the previous day, or from 02:00 to 00:00 today?
Also, could you please briefly say why Vostok changed from UTC+07 to UTC+05? I would like to document this in commentary.
>Has local time at Vostok been UTC+6 ever since 1957, or has it changed before?
No. At least since my antarctic career start, 10 years ago, Vostok base has UTC+7.
Ouch. TZDB has been wrong for Vostok for at least 10 years. I will try to correct this.
(I hope you have not been at Vostok for 10 years! I'd rather live in Siberia, or even in Nebraska. I can joke about this, as I was born in Nebraska....)
Attached is a draft patch to TZDB to implement these changes. Please let us know if you see problems with it. I have not installed this patch into the TZDB development repository as it is still preliminary.
-- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
participants (6)
-
Brian Inglis -
Fred Gleason -
L. David Baron -
Patsy Griffin -
Paul Eggert -
АПС АКУЛОВ