Lebanon DST change internally disputed
Lebanon is going through many internal disputes surrounding the latest decision to delay DST Many institutions are refusing to comply with the change and are going to adopt regular DST on Sunday Mar 26th Those institutions include but are not limited to: - News agencies - Religious organizations - Schools, universities, etc... The refusal is mainly centered the legality of that decision and, obviously, the technical chaos it will create because of its short notice Moreover, as some of the below articles mention, this is also causing sectarian strife All of these concerns are important to bring to light in view of IANA's procedures for updating timezone data: If you would ask today "what the average person on the street would think the time actually is", it's not at all clear what the answer would be Below are some links about these latest developments: https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/25/middleeast/lebanon-daylight-savings-intl/inde... https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon-news/693963/lbci-refuses-to-comply-with... https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/news-bulletin-reports/693989/lebanese-patriarch... http://www.mtv.com.lb/en/news/local/1352862/bkerke--we-are-committed-to-swit... http://www.mtv.com.lb/en/news/live_feed/1352804/mtv-will-not-comply-with-the... https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1332635/postponement-of-daylight-sav...
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 at 16:46, Jad Baz via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Lebanon is going through many internal disputes surrounding the latest decision to delay DST
Thanks for the heads-up. This situation is unfortunate and is just one of many reasons we advise governments to disseminate these changes far in advance. Thankfully, this sort of division appears rare in recent memory, but it has the potential to be incredibly disruptive when it does occur, and there's not really anything we can do about that.
All of these concerns are important to bring to light in view of IANA's procedures for updating timezone data: If you would ask today "what the average person on the street would think the time actually is", it's not at all clear what the answer would be
Yes, it appears many in Lebanon are planning to set their clocks forward in about 15 minutes while others plan to wait a few more weeks. Hopefully those differences can be reconciled, and the situation can clear itself up somewhat over the next few days. Do keep us posted. In the meantime we have, by coincidence of timing, two tz versions which differ only by the Lebanese government's recent announcement. Though it's certainly an imperfect solution, those hoping to observe the government's announced delay of DST could use tz version 2023b, while those choosing to ignore the delay could use 2023a (or even 2022g if they don't care about handling timestamps in Egypt, Greenland, Morocco, and Palestine.) Of course, such a split approach would present some pretty major interoperability challenges. -- Tim Parenti
My gut feeling is that this change won't last long and will be repealed soon. The public frustration with this change is just too great, especially seeing that it was done on such short notice and with non-existent planning for the ramifications/methods for carrying it out (they didn't even contact IANA!) At any rate it does appear that the consensus in the country is that DST is postponed and so I don't see a need to update the timezone data... and besides what is the protocol in these cases, a new timezone for every sect? Perhaps it would be the first instance of timezones on the basis of sect than region (or have the Tibetans beaten us to the punch?) On 3/25/23 23:45, Tim Parenti via tz wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 at 16:46, Jad Baz via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Lebanon is going through many internal disputes surrounding the latest decision to delay DST
Thanks for the heads-up. This situation is unfortunate and is just one of many reasons we advise governments to disseminate these changes far in advance. Thankfully, this sort of division appears rare in recent memory, but it has the potential to be incredibly disruptive when it does occur, and there's not really anything we can do about that.
All of these concerns are important to bring to light in view of IANA's procedures for updating timezone data: If you would ask today "what the average person on the street would think the time actually is", it's not at all clear what the answer would be
Yes, it appears many in Lebanon are planning to set their clocks forward in about 15 minutes while others plan to wait a few more weeks. Hopefully those differences can be reconciled, and the situation can clear itself up somewhat over the next few days. Do keep us posted.
In the meantime we have, by coincidence of timing, two tz versions which differ only by the Lebanese government's recent announcement. Though it's certainly an imperfect solution, those hoping to observe the government's announced delay of DST could use tz version 2023b, while those choosing to ignore the delay could use 2023a (or even 2022g if they don't care about handling timestamps in Egypt, Greenland, Morocco, and Palestine.) Of course, such a split approach would present some pretty major interoperability challenges.
-- Tim Parenti
Indeed Suppose the decision is not reversed though and the IANA db remains on 2023b Vendors will pickup that version and will rollout to their devices incrementally The issue is that the rollout will not be instantaneous but rather incremental across different vendors, systems and devices over several days perhaps In the interim period, I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g On Sat, Mar 25, 2023, 23:59 Rany Hany via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
My gut feeling is that this change won't last long and will be repealed soon. The public frustration with this change is just too great, especially seeing that it was done on such short notice and with non-existent planning for the ramifications/methods for carrying it out (they didn't even contact IANA!)
At any rate it does appear that the consensus in the country is that DST is postponed and so I don't see a need to update the timezone data... and besides what is the protocol in these cases, a new timezone for every sect?
Perhaps it would be the first instance of timezones on the basis of sect than region (or have the Tibetans beaten us to the punch?) On 3/25/23 23:45, Tim Parenti via tz wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 at 16:46, Jad Baz via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Lebanon is going through many internal disputes surrounding the latest decision to delay DST
Thanks for the heads-up. This situation is unfortunate and is just one of many reasons we advise governments to disseminate these changes far in advance. Thankfully, this sort of division appears rare in recent memory, but it has the potential to be incredibly disruptive when it does occur, and there's not really anything we can do about that.
All of these concerns are important to bring to light in view of IANA's procedures for updating timezone data: If you would ask today "what the average person on the street would think the time actually is", it's not at all clear what the answer would be
Yes, it appears many in Lebanon are planning to set their clocks forward in about 15 minutes while others plan to wait a few more weeks. Hopefully those differences can be reconciled, and the situation can clear itself up somewhat over the next few days. Do keep us posted.
In the meantime we have, by coincidence of timing, two tz versions which differ only by the Lebanese government's recent announcement. Though it's certainly an imperfect solution, those hoping to observe the government's announced delay of DST could use tz version 2023b, while those choosing to ignore the delay could use 2023a (or even 2022g if they don't care about handling timestamps in Egypt, Greenland, Morocco, and Palestine.) Of course, such a split approach would present some pretty major interoperability challenges.
-- Tim Parenti
I've simply set the timezone to Etc/GMT+2 in the meantime. It should work fine in the interim. The only thing I worry about is the following scenario: * User sets their timezone to Asia/Beirut on old tzinfo which thinks its DST time * Disables NTP and manually sets the time without DST offset * All other calendars/etc is messed up and off by one hour This is made worse by the fact that Alfa and Touch (only telecom providers) recommended their customers to just manually set the time instead of adjusting the UTC offset... All around terrible situation compounded by poor advise from these companies :( On 3/26/23 01:12, Jad Baz wrote:
Indeed Suppose the decision is not reversed though and the IANA db remains on 2023b Vendors will pickup that version and will rollout to their devices incrementally
The issue is that the rollout will not be instantaneous but rather incremental across different vendors, systems and devices over several days perhaps
In the interim period, I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g
On Sat, Mar 25, 2023, 23:59 Rany Hany via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
My gut feeling is that this change won't last long and will be repealed soon. The public frustration with this change is just too great, especially seeing that it was done on such short notice and with non-existent planning for the ramifications/methods for carrying it out (they didn't even contact IANA!)
At any rate it does appear that the consensus in the country is that DST is postponed and so I don't see a need to update the timezone data... and besides what is the protocol in these cases, a new timezone for every sect?
Perhaps it would be the first instance of timezones on the basis of sect than region (or have the Tibetans beaten us to the punch?)
On 3/25/23 23:45, Tim Parenti via tz wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 at 16:46, Jad Baz via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Lebanon is going through many internal disputes surrounding the latest decision to delay DST
Thanks for the heads-up. This situation is unfortunate and is just one of many reasons we advise governments to disseminate these changes far in advance. Thankfully, this sort of division appears rare in recent memory, but it has the potential to be incredibly disruptive when it does occur, and there's not really anything we can do about that.
All of these concerns are important to bring to light in view of IANA's procedures for updating timezone data: If you would ask today "what the average person on the street would think the time actually is", it's not at all clear what the answer would be
Yes, it appears many in Lebanon are planning to set their clocks forward in about 15 minutes while others plan to wait a few more weeks. Hopefully those differences can be reconciled, and the situation can clear itself up somewhat over the next few days. Do keep us posted.
In the meantime we have, by coincidence of timing, two tz versions which differ only by the Lebanese government's recent announcement. Though it's certainly an imperfect solution, those hoping to observe the government's announced delay of DST could use tz version 2023b, while those choosing to ignore the delay could use 2023a (or even 2022g if they don't care about handling timestamps in Egypt, Greenland, Morocco, and Palestine.) Of course, such a split approach would present some pretty major interoperability challenges.
-- Tim Parenti
Lebanese news confuses DST for UTC: https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/news-bulletin-reports/693995/lebanons-daylight-... ;^> NTP syncs systems to keep UTC time accurately. DST just bumps the local Standard Time offset *from UTC* by an extra hour. As Egypt was fined US$8M by IATA in 2016 for inadequate notice of DST change affecting flight schedules, hopefully Lebanon will see a bill for double that! Someone should ensure that the bill goes to the person of the Prime Minister who made the stupid decision, whose impact he did not understand, and obviously and arrogantly made no effort to ask anyone with any background, knowledge, or responsibility. [I'm greatly in favour of laws making all business and government leaders responsible civilly, criminally, and financially for negative impacts of their decisions! The rest of us are: why should they get a free pass?] -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry On 2023-03-25 16:20, Rany Hany via tz wrote:
I've simply set the timezone to Etc/GMT+2 in the meantime. It should work fine in the interim. The only thing I worry about is the following scenario:
* User sets their timezone to Asia/Beirut on old tzinfo which thinks its DST time * Disables NTP and manually sets the time without DST offset * All other calendars/etc is messed up and off by one hour
This is made worse by the fact that Alfa and Touch (only telecom providers) recommended their customers to just manually set the time instead of adjusting the UTC offset... All around terrible situation compounded by poor advise from these companies :(
On 3/26/23 01:12, Jad Baz wrote:
Indeed Suppose the decision is not reversed though and the IANA db remains on 2023b Vendors will pickup that version and will rollout to their devices incrementally
The issue is that the rollout will not be instantaneous but rather incremental across different vendors, systems and devices over several days perhaps
In the interim period, I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g
On Sat, Mar 25, 2023, 23:59 Rany Hany via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
My gut feeling is that this change won't last long and will be repealed soon. The public frustration with this change is just too great, especially seeing that it was done on such short notice and with non-existent planning for the ramifications/methods for carrying it out (they didn't even contact IANA!)
At any rate it does appear that the consensus in the country is that DST is postponed and so I don't see a need to update the timezone data... and besides what is the protocol in these cases, a new timezone for every sect?
Perhaps it would be the first instance of timezones on the basis of sect than region (or have the Tibetans beaten us to the punch?)
On 3/25/23 23:45, Tim Parenti via tz wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 at 16:46, Jad Baz via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Lebanon is going through many internal disputes surrounding the latest decision to delay DST
Thanks for the heads-up. This situation is unfortunate and is just one of many reasons we advise governments to disseminate these changes far in advance. Thankfully, this sort of division appears rare in recent memory, but it has the potential to be incredibly disruptive when it does occur, and there's not really anything we can do about that.
All of these concerns are important to bring to light in view of IANA's procedures for updating timezone data: If you would ask today "what the average person on the street would think the time actually is", it's not at all clear what the answer would be
Yes, it appears many in Lebanon are planning to set their clocks forward in about 15 minutes while others plan to wait a few more weeks. Hopefully those differences can be reconciled, and the situation can clear itself up somewhat over the next few days. Do keep us posted.
In the meantime we have, by coincidence of timing, two tz versions which differ only by the Lebanese government's recent announcement. Though it's certainly an imperfect solution, those hoping to observe the government's announced delay of DST could use tz version 2023b, while those choosing to ignore the delay could use 2023a (or even 2022g if they don't care about handling timestamps in Egypt, Greenland, Morocco, and Palestine.) Of course, such a split approach would present some pretty major interoperability challenges.
On 3/25/23 23:11:25, Brian Inglis via tz wrote:
Lebanese news confuses DST for UTC: ... https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/news-bulletin-reports/693995/lebanons-daylight-... ;^>
I recall dual standards in mid-20th-Century USA. Town Hall clock towers showed DST if that was the local convention; the railroad clock tower showed Standard Time by which federal law required railroads to operate. Airlines pragmatically published passenger-facing schedules according to local convention. -- gil
On 2023-03-26 10:06, Paul Gilmartin via tz wrote:
On 3/25/23 23:11:25, Brian Inglis via tz wrote:
Lebanese news confuses DST for UTC: ... https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/news-bulletin-reports/693995/lebanons-daylight-... ;^>
I recall dual standards in mid-20th-Century USA. Town Hall clock towers showed DST if that was the local convention; the railroad clock tower showed Standard Time by which federal law required railroads to operate. Airlines pragmatically published passenger-facing schedules according to local convention.
Indeed that seems to be how (Lebanese) Middle East Airlines and Egypt Air into Beirut are operating: flying on the existing schedule and telling people to turn up an hour early (always good practice everywhere!) -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda Watch this space Arabic article: https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon/694139/%D9%85%D9%8A%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%AA%D... On Sun, Mar 26, 2023, 22:25 Brian Inglis via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 10:06, Paul Gilmartin via tz wrote:
On 3/25/23 23:11:25, Brian Inglis via tz wrote:
Lebanese news confuses DST for UTC: ...
https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/news-bulletin-reports/693995/lebanons-daylight-... ;^>
I recall dual standards in mid-20th-Century USA. Town Hall clock towers showed DST if that was the local convention; the railroad clock tower showed Standard Time by which federal law required railroads to operate. Airlines pragmatically published passenger-facing schedules according to local convention.
Indeed that seems to be how (Lebanese) Middle East Airlines and Egypt Air into Beirut are operating: flying on the existing schedule and telling people to turn up an hour early (always good practice everywhere!)
-- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-) Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite possible) the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary. In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see. What a mess, huh?
Thank you Paul for your reply! It is a mess indeed. The problem now is that google and others are using 2023b and when someone searches for "Beirut local time" they get the wrong time. People who work remotely got all their calendars messed up. We hope that the illegal prime minister revert the decision, but we also wish, please 🙏, that you release 2023c even before that decision. Again thank you so much for your time and understanding. Regards, Joseph Khoury On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 1:15 AM Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-)
Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite possible) the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary.
In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see.
What a mess, huh?
A mess indeed. If there is a decision reversal tomorrow that's effective tomorrow, there'll be a database decision on whether to record the less-than-week-long clock change.-S --ado On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 6:15 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-)
Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite possible) the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary.
In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see.
What a mess, huh?
Lebanon's PM likely to reverse decision and stick to regular summer time Kindly hold off on 2023b until this is resolved https://twitter.com/ALJADEEDNEWS/status/1640262642206998528 On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 01:57 Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
A mess indeed.
If there is a decision reversal tomorrow that's effective tomorrow, there'll be a database decision on whether to record the less-than-week-long clock change.-S
--ado
On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 6:15 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-)
Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite possible) the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary.
In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see.
What a mess, huh?
Issue of timezones postponed until next Thursday: https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon/694101/%D9%88%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%... On 2023-03-27 11:22, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Lebanon's PM likely to reverse decision and stick to regular summer time
Kindly hold off on 2023b until this is resolved
https://twitter.com/ALJADEEDNEWS/status/1640262642206998528
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 01:57 Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
A mess indeed.
If there is a decision reversal tomorrow that's effective tomorrow, there'll be a database decision on whether to record the less-than-week-long clock change.-S
--ado
On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 6:15 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-)
Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite possible) the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary.
In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see.
What a mess, huh?
I think that's a bit older This article says otherwise That the cabinet is actually meeting right now https://www.aljadeed.tv/arabic/news/local/270320237 On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 12:55 Rany Hany via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Issue of timezones postponed until next Thursday:
https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon/694101/%D9%88%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%...
On 2023-03-27 11:22, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Lebanon's PM likely to reverse decision and stick to regular summer time
Kindly hold off on 2023b until this is resolved
https://twitter.com/ALJADEEDNEWS/status/1640262642206998528
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 01:57 Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
A mess indeed.
If there is a decision reversal tomorrow that's effective tomorrow, there'll be a database decision on whether to record the less-than-week-long clock change.-S
--ado
On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 6:15 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-)
Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite possible) the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary.
In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see.
What a mess, huh?
My bad, didn't notice it was off by a few hours. Ridiculous how reckless all this is. Anyway let's hope they don't double down... On 2023-03-27 12:59, Jad Baz wrote:
I think that's a bit older This article says otherwise That the cabinet is actually meeting right now
https://www.aljadeed.tv/arabic/news/local/270320237
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 12:55 Rany Hany via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Issue of timezones postponed until next Thursday:
https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon/694101/%D9%88%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%...
Lebanon's PM likely to reverse decision and stick to regular summer time
Kindly hold off on 2023b until this is resolved
https://twitter.com/ALJADEEDNEWS/status/1640262642206998528
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023, 01:57 Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
A mess indeed.
If there is a decision reversal tomorrow that's effective tomorrow, there'll be a database decision on whether to record the less-than-week-long clock change.-S
--ado
On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 6:15 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-26 14:56, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
Prime Minister Mikati calls for a cabinet session tomorrow (Monday) noon and the issue of timing is the single item on the agenda
Noon standard time, or noon daylight saving time? :-)
Anyway, thank you for the heads-up. In the light of today's and (likely) tomorrow's developments I suggest that downstream distributors stick with tzdb 2023a for now. The only change in 2023b is this recent controversial Lebanon adjustment, and if (as seems quite
On 2023-03-27 11:22, Jad Baz via tz wrote: possible)
the Lebanese government changes its rules again, we'll need a tzdb 2023c shortly, which will quite possibly be identical to 2023a except for commentary.
In short: stick with 2023a for now, and tomorrow let's see.
What a mess, huh?
On 2023-03-25 15:12, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g
It's a mess indeed. I imagine that most automated clocks in Lebanon switched about 50 minutes ago, following the old rules and ignoring the rule change. And we're seeing many reports of institutions either ignoring the rule change, or maintaining two distinct clocks for different use cases. To work around some of the TZDB part of the mess, here is what people in Lebanon can do, regardless of which TZDB release is installed. * To adopt the rule change, use Libyan time (TZ='Africa/Tripoli'). Alternatively if you have a POSIX-conforming system you can use TZ='EET-2EEST,M4.3.5/0,M10.5.0/0' instead. * To ignore the rule change, use Cyprus time (TZ='Asia/Nicosia'), which is close to the old rules (though it changes clocks at 03:00 instead of 00:00 so it won't start working until about two hours and 10 minutes from now. Alternatively if you have POSIX use TZ='EET-2EEST,M3.5.0/0,M10.5.0/0', which doesn't have the early-morning glitch that Cyprus does. None of these workarounds are good indefinitely; for example, if you want to adopt the rule change, Libya time will stop working on April 21. These are only temporary workarounds, intended for use on systems where you don't know the TZDB version. I hope things settle down soon with a consensus in Lebanon. If the consensus is to keep using the old rules, we'll need a new TZDB release of course.
The Lebanese Education Minister issued a statement a few hours ago saying that educational and vocational institutions in the country did spring forward last night and are now operating on summer time: https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/LBCI-latest-news/694103/Lebanon-news-lbci/en - full statement below (Google Translated to English, apologies for any inaccuracies). Folks high up in the government seem to be saying that the Prime Minister acted outside his legal authority in announcing the DST delay, and that unless the Council of Ministers convenes and votes to formally adopt the DST delay, the nation should operate as if DST began on March 26 as originally anticipated. So my question is this: In light of this discussion, what sort of documentation or government action would this group need to decide to release an update reverting the change? What would the impacts of a retroactive update be? Thank you, Andrea Singletary -- Statement of Abbas Halabi, Lebanon's Minister of Education, on 26 March, 2023: In light of the great dangers that the country is going through, and given my deep knowledge of the spirit of the heavenly religions that unites the people of the country under the umbrella of love, tolerance and mercy, especially in the time of all-inclusive fasting, I call on all Lebanese to reduce the severity of the media conflict and to refrain from any new decisions such as the one recently taken regarding not changing the clock as usual, which fueled the sectarian discourse in the country, and we were and still are in need of an additional issue of division. Therefore, we consider that the decision of the Council of Ministers related to the adoption of daylight saving time remains valid unless it is amended in a session of the Council of Ministers, and that daylight saving time in schools, professions and universities remains dependent on the basis of the legitimacy of the decision and the affirmation of the unity of the people of education, so it is not permissible to leave the educational, professional and university institutions at a loss. From her command, and the parents are without guidance as to what hour their children go to schools. The educational sector is the only remaining model for national unity, and we will not leave it vulnerable to rupture and division. The globe rotates and night and day move according to every country in the world, and the times of prayer, fasting and festivals change according to the sunrise and sunset for any part of the earth. Therefore, I call on everyone, including officials and citizens, temporal and spiritual, to pay attention to the deep wounds of the people for whom bread has become difficult to reach, and let us fear God in our words and positions, and put the supreme national interest and people's issues and needs at the forefront, and return the discussion to its size, away from extremism and exaggerated responses. If the Council of Ministers convenes and takes a decision amending its previous decision related to daylight saving time, we will be the first to apply it. In the absence of such a decision, daylight saving time remains approved and applied in the educational sector. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2023 5:50 PM To: Jad Baz <jadbaz@gmail.com>; Rany Hany <rany_hany@riseup.net> Cc: Time zone mailing list <tz@iana.org> Subject: Re: [tz] Lebanon DST change internally disputed On 2023-03-25 15:12, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g
It's a mess indeed. I imagine that most automated clocks in Lebanon switched about 50 minutes ago, following the old rules and ignoring the rule change. And we're seeing many reports of institutions either ignoring the rule change, or maintaining two distinct clocks for different use cases. To work around some of the TZDB part of the mess, here is what people in Lebanon can do, regardless of which TZDB release is installed. * To adopt the rule change, use Libyan time (TZ='Africa/Tripoli'). Alternatively if you have a POSIX-conforming system you can use TZ='EET-2EEST,M4.3.5/0,M10.5.0/0' instead. * To ignore the rule change, use Cyprus time (TZ='Asia/Nicosia'), which is close to the old rules (though it changes clocks at 03:00 instead of 00:00 so it won't start working until about two hours and 10 minutes from now. Alternatively if you have POSIX use TZ='EET-2EEST,M3.5.0/0,M10.5.0/0', which doesn't have the early-morning glitch that Cyprus does. None of these workarounds are good indefinitely; for example, if you want to adopt the rule change, Libya time will stop working on April 21. These are only temporary workarounds, intended for use on systems where you don't know the TZDB version. I hope things settle down soon with a consensus in Lebanon. If the consensus is to keep using the old rules, we'll need a new TZDB release of course.
From what I have gathered, the consensus is in favor of daylight saving time. All the organizations I have dealt with have announced that they will not recognize the change made by the Prime Minister. This is due to the complications caused by the change being implemented at such short notice, despite many organizations originally committing to the change. Additionally, rescheduling cross-timezone meetings and flights has resulted in wasted /paid/ hours. However, this is all very domain-specific, as each domain has agreed upon its own timezone. For instance, the banking sector has decided to postpone the DST change everywhere except in internal documents for technical reasons. To make it long story short, I am unsure of the best course of action to take at the moment. It's all really confusing. On 3/26/23 19:36, Andrea Singletary wrote:
The Lebanese Education Minister issued a statement a few hours ago saying that educational and vocational institutions in the country did spring forward last night and are now operating on summer time:https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/LBCI-latest-news/694103/Lebanon-news-lbci/en - full statement below (Google Translated to English, apologies for any inaccuracies). Folks high up in the government seem to be saying that the Prime Minister acted outside his legal authority in announcing the DST delay, and that unless the Council of Ministers convenes and votes to formally adopt the DST delay, the nation should operate as if DST began on March 26 as originally anticipated.
So my question is this: In light of this discussion, what sort of documentation or government action would this group need to decide to release an update reverting the change? What would the impacts of a retroactive update be?
Thank you, Andrea Singletary
--
Statement of Abbas Halabi, Lebanon's Minister of Education, on 26 March, 2023:
In light of the great dangers that the country is going through, and given my deep knowledge of the spirit of the heavenly religions that unites the people of the country under the umbrella of love, tolerance and mercy, especially in the time of all-inclusive fasting, I call on all Lebanese to reduce the severity of the media conflict and to refrain from any new decisions such as the one recently taken regarding not changing the clock as usual, which fueled the sectarian discourse in the country, and we were and still are in need of an additional issue of division.
Therefore, we consider that the decision of the Council of Ministers related to the adoption of daylight saving time remains valid unless it is amended in a session of the Council of Ministers, and that daylight saving time in schools, professions and universities remains dependent on the basis of the legitimacy of the decision and the affirmation of the unity of the people of education, so it is not permissible to leave the educational, professional and university institutions at a loss. From her command, and the parents are without guidance as to what hour their children go to schools.
The educational sector is the only remaining model for national unity, and we will not leave it vulnerable to rupture and division. The globe rotates and night and day move according to every country in the world, and the times of prayer, fasting and festivals change according to the sunrise and sunset for any part of the earth. Therefore, I call on everyone, including officials and citizens, temporal and spiritual, to pay attention to the deep wounds of the people for whom bread has become difficult to reach, and let us fear God in our words and positions, and put the supreme national interest and people's issues and needs at the forefront, and return the discussion to its size, away from extremism and exaggerated responses.
If the Council of Ministers convenes and takes a decision amending its previous decision related to daylight saving time, we will be the first to apply it. In the absence of such a decision, daylight saving time remains approved and applied in the educational sector.
-----Original Message----- From: Paul Eggert<eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2023 5:50 PM To: Jad Baz<jadbaz@gmail.com>; Rany Hany<rany_hany@riseup.net> Cc: Time zone mailing list<tz@iana.org> Subject: Re: [tz] Lebanon DST change internally disputed
On 2023-03-25 15:12, Jad Baz via tz wrote:
I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g It's a mess indeed. I imagine that most automated clocks in Lebanon switched about 50 minutes ago, following the old rules and ignoring the rule change. And we're seeing many reports of institutions either ignoring the rule change, or maintaining two distinct clocks for different use cases.
To work around some of the TZDB part of the mess, here is what people in Lebanon can do, regardless of which TZDB release is installed.
* To adopt the rule change, use Libyan time (TZ='Africa/Tripoli'). Alternatively if you have a POSIX-conforming system you can use TZ='EET-2EEST,M4.3.5/0,M10.5.0/0' instead.
* To ignore the rule change, use Cyprus time (TZ='Asia/Nicosia'), which is close to the old rules (though it changes clocks at 03:00 instead of 00:00 so it won't start working until about two hours and 10 minutes from now. Alternatively if you have POSIX use TZ='EET-2EEST,M3.5.0/0,M10.5.0/0', which doesn't have the early-morning glitch that Cyprus does.
None of these workarounds are good indefinitely; for example, if you want to adopt the rule change, Libya time will stop working on April 21. These are only temporary workarounds, intended for use on systems where you don't know the TZDB version.
I hope things settle down soon with a consensus in Lebanon. If the consensus is to keep using the old rules, we'll need a new TZDB release of course.
Do we think the options are restricted to either (a) DST started on 26 March, or (b) DST starts on 21 April? Or is there a chance that the Council of Ministers votes to pick a different, random date - say, 8 April? How will vital records be impacted? If a baby is born in Beirut at 21:30 UTC tonight, is their birthday 26 March (born at 23:30 local time), or 27 March (born at 00:30 local time)? Is it just whatever time the hospital said it was? If the hospital did not spring forward, so the baby's date/time of birth is recorded as 23:30 (UTC+2) on 26 March, but then eventually the Council of Ministers announces that no, actually we DID spring forward as scheduled, then does the hospital go back and adjust their records so the baby's date/time of birth is 00:30 (UTC+3) on 27 March? The implications for this are mind-blowing. From: Rany Hany <rany_hany@riseup.net> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 12:54 PM To: Andrea Singletary <asinglet@epic.com>; Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>; Jad Baz <jadbaz@gmail.com> Cc: Time zone mailing list <tz@iana.org> Subject: Re: [tz] Lebanon DST change internally disputed External Mail. Careful of links / attachments. Submit Helpdesk if unsure.
From what I have gathered, the consensus is in favor of daylight saving time.
All the organizations I have dealt with have announced that they will not recognize the change made by the Prime Minister. This is due to the complications caused by the change being implemented at such short notice, despite many organizations originally committing to the change. Additionally, rescheduling cross-timezone meetings and flights has resulted in wasted paid hours. However, this is all very domain-specific, as each domain has agreed upon its own timezone. For instance, the banking sector has decided to postpone the DST change everywhere except in internal documents for technical reasons. To make it long story short, I am unsure of the best course of action to take at the moment. It's all really confusing. On 3/26/23 19:36, Andrea Singletary wrote: The Lebanese Education Minister issued a statement a few hours ago saying that educational and vocational institutions in the country did spring forward last night and are now operating on summer time: https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/LBCI-latest-news/694103/Lebanon-news-lbci/en<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.lbcgroup.tv/news/LBCI-latest-news/694103/Lebanon-news-lbci/en__;!!BJMh1g!7MlUmu9CsUuSVn4ApH7iPHWt6N9fIci1iQU7ApcoA9qtY68GSvMnIThuLfZey2g7UeEtwtx_4_G2t2ea$> - full statement below (Google Translated to English, apologies for any inaccuracies). Folks high up in the government seem to be saying that the Prime Minister acted outside his legal authority in announcing the DST delay, and that unless the Council of Ministers convenes and votes to formally adopt the DST delay, the nation should operate as if DST began on March 26 as originally anticipated. So my question is this: In light of this discussion, what sort of documentation or government action would this group need to decide to release an update reverting the change? What would the impacts of a retroactive update be? Thank you, Andrea Singletary -- Statement of Abbas Halabi, Lebanon's Minister of Education, on 26 March, 2023: In light of the great dangers that the country is going through, and given my deep knowledge of the spirit of the heavenly religions that unites the people of the country under the umbrella of love, tolerance and mercy, especially in the time of all-inclusive fasting, I call on all Lebanese to reduce the severity of the media conflict and to refrain from any new decisions such as the one recently taken regarding not changing the clock as usual, which fueled the sectarian discourse in the country, and we were and still are in need of an additional issue of division. Therefore, we consider that the decision of the Council of Ministers related to the adoption of daylight saving time remains valid unless it is amended in a session of the Council of Ministers, and that daylight saving time in schools, professions and universities remains dependent on the basis of the legitimacy of the decision and the affirmation of the unity of the people of education, so it is not permissible to leave the educational, professional and university institutions at a loss. From her command, and the parents are without guidance as to what hour their children go to schools. The educational sector is the only remaining model for national unity, and we will not leave it vulnerable to rupture and division. The globe rotates and night and day move according to every country in the world, and the times of prayer, fasting and festivals change according to the sunrise and sunset for any part of the earth. Therefore, I call on everyone, including officials and citizens, temporal and spiritual, to pay attention to the deep wounds of the people for whom bread has become difficult to reach, and let us fear God in our words and positions, and put the supreme national interest and people's issues and needs at the forefront, and return the discussion to its size, away from extremism and exaggerated responses. If the Council of Ministers convenes and takes a decision amending its previous decision related to daylight saving time, we will be the first to apply it. In the absence of such a decision, daylight saving time remains approved and applied in the educational sector. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu><mailto:eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2023 5:50 PM To: Jad Baz <jadbaz@gmail.com><mailto:jadbaz@gmail.com>; Rany Hany <rany_hany@riseup.net><mailto:rany_hany@riseup.net> Cc: Time zone mailing list <tz@iana.org><mailto:tz@iana.org> Subject: Re: [tz] Lebanon DST change internally disputed On 2023-03-25 15:12, Jad Baz via tz wrote: I'm wondering how transactions, meeting times and any sort of dealing with anyone outside Lebanon will take place when, say, one party is on 2023b while the other is still on 2022g It's a mess indeed. I imagine that most automated clocks in Lebanon switched about 50 minutes ago, following the old rules and ignoring the rule change. And we're seeing many reports of institutions either ignoring the rule change, or maintaining two distinct clocks for different use cases. To work around some of the TZDB part of the mess, here is what people in Lebanon can do, regardless of which TZDB release is installed. * To adopt the rule change, use Libyan time (TZ='Africa/Tripoli'). Alternatively if you have a POSIX-conforming system you can use TZ='EET-2EEST,M4.3.5/0,M10.5.0/0' instead. * To ignore the rule change, use Cyprus time (TZ='Asia/Nicosia'), which is close to the old rules (though it changes clocks at 03:00 instead of 00:00 so it won't start working until about two hours and 10 minutes from now. Alternatively if you have POSIX use TZ='EET-2EEST,M3.5.0/0,M10.5.0/0', which doesn't have the early-morning glitch that Cyprus does. None of these workarounds are good indefinitely; for example, if you want to adopt the rule change, Libya time will stop working on April 21. These are only temporary workarounds, intended for use on systems where you don't know the TZDB version. I hope things settle down soon with a consensus in Lebanon. If the consensus is to keep using the old rules, we'll need a new TZDB release of course.
Fortunately, it hasn't deteriorated to that extent yet, so I would say that these are the only two options available at the moment. My personal theory is that this issue is slightly exaggerated and may be a subtle form of protest against the government. I have seen people associate "springing forwards" with being "patriotic," which is just ridiculous. It is somewhat disheartening that one of the last acts of defiance available to the people is not complying with this stupid change. Regarding vital records, I really have no idea. I would hope that they store the time along with the UTC offset to avoid any ambiguity, but I doubt they do. On 3/26/23 20:11, Andrea Singletary wrote:
Do we think the options are restricted to either (a) DST started on 26 March, or (b) DST starts on 21 April?
participants (10)
-
Andrea Singletary -
Arthur David Olson -
Brian Inglis -
Jad Baz -
Joseph Khoury -
Paul Eggert -
Paul Gilmartin -
Rany Hany -
rany_hany＠riseup.net
-
Tim Parenti