FW: Revisiting Australian time zone abbreviations

I'm (trepidatiously) forwarding this message from Richard Stanway, who is not on the time zone mailing list. Those of you who are on the list, please direct replies appropriately. --ado From: Richard Stanway [mailto:r.stanway@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 5:49 To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Revisiting Australian time zone abbreviations Hello, I came across this mailing list while researching a time zone issue on our website which indirectly makes use of the zoneinfo. We localize some timestamps to the visitors time zone, but the site is trafficked by a predominately US audience where the abbreviation "EST" is used quite often. It is difficult for an Australian visitor to realize that the times they are seeing have been localized since they show for example as "8pm EST" due to the abbreviations used for the Australian time zones, leading to confusion as to whether it is US EST or AU EST. The last discussion on AEST vs EST seems to be about 9 years old and I figured it was time to revisit the subject now that there seems to be an official source. The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), Australian Central Standard Time (ACST) and Australian Western Standard Time (AWST) with Australian Eastern Daylight Time (AEDT) and Australian Central Daylight Time (ACDT) when observing daylight saving time. Reference: http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time Any chance of these official names making it into a zoneinfo update?

(Also cc-ed to Richard Stanway) Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E] <olsona <at> dc37a.nci.nih.gov> writes:
The last discussion on AEST vs EST seems to be about 9 years old and I figured it was time to revisit the subject now that there seems to be an official source. The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), Australian Central Standard Time (ACST) and Australian Western Standard Time (AWST) with Australian Eastern Daylight Time (AEDT) and Australian Central Daylight Time (ACDT) when observing daylight saving time. Reference: http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Any chance of these official names making it into a zoneinfo update?
I've asked the people who manage that website about an official document stating the names of the timezones and they referred me to the Bureau of Meteorology who haven't come back to be (it was earlier last month). The biggest problem most likely is that it is not a federal issue but a state issue (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/dst_times.shtml): NSW says at http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/Lawlink/cru/ll_cru.nsf/pages/cru_daylightsavin...: NSW legislation does not specify abbreviations for standard or summer time. EST denotes Eastern Standard Time. Summertime or daylight saving time is commonly expressed as EDST (eastern daylight saving time). ACT says at http://www.cmd.act.gov.au/communication/holidays nothing about the abbrevations. VIC says at http://www.vic.gov.au/daylight-saving-in-victoria.html nothing about the abbrevations. Same with SA at http://www.safework.sa.gov.au/show_page.jsp?id=2675 and the underlaying links. I have also shot the question to the Australian Standards people at http://www.standards.org.au/ and the National Measurement Institute at http://www.measurement.gov.au/ (follow up from the National Standards Commision who wrote this article http://web.archive.org/web/20040602010849/http://www.nsc.gov.au/ PDF_WORD/Info/L08.pdf which has the long abbrevations in it). I hope I will get an answer from either of them.... Edwin

Hi, As a fellow Aussie developer I too have faced this issue. We simply display the name of of a capital city (Melbourne) on the site. The general public probably do not understand the official abbreviations anyhow, I know I don't. Bill Birch -----Original Message----- From: Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E] [mailto:olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov] Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 8:28 AM To: 'tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov' Cc: 'r.stanway@gmail.com' Subject: FW: Revisiting Australian time zone abbreviations I'm (trepidatiously) forwarding this message from Richard Stanway, who is not on the time zone mailing list. Those of you who are on the list, please direct replies appropriately. --ado From: Richard Stanway [mailto:r.stanway@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 5:49 To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Revisiting Australian time zone abbreviations Hello, I came across this mailing list while researching a time zone issue on our website which indirectly makes use of the zoneinfo. We localize some timestamps to the visitors time zone, but the site is trafficked by a predominately US audience where the abbreviation "EST" is used quite often. It is difficult for an Australian visitor to realize that the times they are seeing have been localized since they show for example as "8pm EST" due to the abbreviations used for the Australian time zones, leading to confusion as to whether it is US EST or AU EST. The last discussion on AEST vs EST seems to be about 9 years old and I figured it was time to revisit the subject now that there seems to be an official source. The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), Australian Central Standard Time (ACST) and Australian Western Standard Time (AWST) with Australian Eastern Daylight Time (AEDT) and Australian Central Daylight Time (ACDT) when observing daylight saving time. Reference: http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time Any chance of these official names making it into a zoneinfo update? "This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ National Bank Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication."

The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), ...
I'm afraid it's not that simple. Different websites operated by the government of Australia use different names and abbreviations. The Bureau of Meteorology often uses EST/CST/WST and EDT/CDT; see, for example, <http://www.bom.gov.au/satellite/about_satpix.shtml>. And the Australian Transport Safety Bureau often uses EST/CST/WST and ESuT/CSuT; see, for example, <http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/690841/ar-2009-016(2).pdf>. The tz database's philosophy has generally tried to record what people typically do with their clocks and their abbreviations. If one government agency says that it's AEST/AEDT, that's a good piece of evidence; but if other agencies disagree, that's evidence that there's not a solid consensus within the government what the abbreviations are or should be. The most amusing thing about <http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time>, the web page that Richard Stanway quoted, was this little message at its bottom: "All times shown are Sydney, Australia Time" In other words, the Australian government doesn't follow its own advice on time zone names and abbreviations, even on the government page that talks about time zone names! They just say the equivalent of "TZ=Australia/Sydney"!

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
The tz database's philosophy has generally tried to record what people typically do with their clocks and their abbreviations. If one government agency says that it's AEST/AEDT, that's a good piece of evidence; but if other agencies disagree, that's evidence that there's not a solid consensus within the government what the abbreviations are or should be.
I do wish the Olson database started using the unambiguous abbreviations though - there is no consensus so the database maintainers have to make a best guess. There might also be a catch-22 here, with people underestimating the importance of this database. The Olson database has been in existence for a long, long time and I tend to feel that a major contributing factor for timezone abbreviation confusion in Australia is because all the Unix based systems give people confusing timezone abbreviations. It won't be long now until the majority of people using the database where not born when someone first selected EST/EST for Australian Eastern Standard Time/Australian Eastern Summer Time. Like it or not, the Olson database is the authoritative source for Australian timezone abbreviations and in a leadership position until enough politicians in the right positions make some decisions. I don't expect it to happen soon, as it hasn't happened in the last 25 years people have been asking. What are the reasons for *not* changing? I seem to recall some vague arguments about mythical legacy systems that will break if the abbreviations change. I haven't heard other arguments for keeping the status quo in a long, long time. Do we have to wait until 2038 when the mythical legacy systems explode anyway? Maybe not - I suspect they never survived Y2K... -- Stuart Bishop <stuart@stuartbishop.net> http://www.stuartbishop.net/

Paul Eggert <eggert <at> CS.UCLA.EDU> writes:
The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), ...
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Actually, it could be.
Different websites operated by the government of Australia use different names and abbreviations. The Bureau of Meteorology often uses EST/CST/WST and EDT/CDT; see, for example, <http://www.bom.gov.au/satellite/about_satpix.shtml>. And the Australian Transport Safety Bureau often uses EST/CST/WST and ESuT/CSuT; see, for example, <http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/690841/ar-2009-016(2).pdf>.
I had never heard of the atsb prior to your email. At the time of writing the atsb link does not exist.
The tz database's philosophy has generally tried to record what people typically do with their clocks and their abbreviations. If one government agency says that it's AEST/AEDT, that's a good piece of evidence; but if other agencies disagree, that's evidence that there's not a solid consensus within the government what the abbreviations are or should be.
I suspect if you approached most American government agencies and asked what is the official paper size, they would respond with 'letter'. Despite the fact that it is actually A4 -- the US being a metric country. My point is that there will always being different parts of the goverment in many countries unaware of what is actually official (technically Australia uses 24-hour time, most people would be unaware of this).
The most amusing thing about <http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our- country/time>, the web page that Richard Stanway quoted, was this little message at its bottom:
"All times shown are Sydney, Australia Time"
In other words, the Australian government doesn't follow its own advice on time zone names and abbreviations, even on the government page that talks about time zone names! They just say the equivalent of "TZ=Australia/Sydney"!
You may not have hovered over the link, http://australia.gov.au/about- australia/our-country/time. Yes, that may be what the text says, if you hover over it, it says: "Australian Eastern Standard Time Sydney (AEST)". Which I think should be plenty of evidence that it is time, pun intended, to switch to AEST/ACST/AWST and AEDT/ACDT as appropriate. Regards, Anand
participants (6)
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Anand Kumria
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Birch, Bill
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Edwin Groothuis
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Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E]
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Paul Eggert
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Stuart Bishop