Hi, hope you're doing great! I've noticed some libraries use quite an irrelevant name for the capital of Ukraine: "Timezone: Europe/Kiev". And it comes from TZDB. C'mon lads, everybody in the whole civilized world knows that Kiev is wrong but you use it for some reason (only bloody russians talk like this and without any permission from our country (ukrainians), they push that name just because they want conquer our country and erase ukrainnian culture and you help them to achieve this goal!), the only one official name of this city is Kyiv! Yes, many people say "Kiev" even in Ukraine, but their number is getting down very fast. People start to figure it out. And the most important thing - they use it in non-public conversations. In all public places all information must be written Ukrainian (sometimes dubbing with English and that's it). It is protected by the law ( https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/2704-19#Text). All Latin transliteration of our cities written in this law: https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/z0957-14#Text [image: image.png] No Kiev as you can see. Only Kyiv. Soviet name "Kiev" disappeared 30 years ago. There's no need to exhume this corpse from the grave. Ukraine started a official campaign ( https://mfa.gov.ua/news/67521-correctua-mzs-ukrajini-zvertajetysya-do-svitu-... ) some time ago to show other countries and mass media that Kyiv is only one true name. Even Google accepted it and maps show the correct name. That hit me and my friends and colleagues right in a heart! We hope you find some time to fix this little typo, but this is little only for first look! Hope for your care.
On 1/28/21 1:20 PM, Yaroslav Bilko wrote:
Ukraine started a official campaign ( https://mfa.gov.ua/news/67521-correctua-mzs-ukrajini-zvertajetysya-do-svitu-... ) some time ago to show other countries and mass media that Kyiv is only one true name.
Thanks, we're aware of the renaming effort, and this has been a periodic source of discussion on the tz mailing list. I recently proposed a transition plan for Europe/Kiev → Europe/Kyiv here: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2020-November/029542.html and I suggest you review that email thread. There's no rush; tzdb tends to move slowly about these things, due to software compatibility concerns. By the way, the choice of spelling should not be important to end users, as the tzdb spelling is not intended to be visible to them. End users should see their preferred spelling which would typically be Київ, but could also be Kyiv, Kænugarður, Κίεβο, 基輔, or whatever else is appropriate for the user's locale. The Unicode Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR) is a good source for these localized names; see <http://cldr.unicode.org/>. If your software application is exposing the string "Europe/Kiev" to users who prefer a different name, please send bug reports mentioning CLDR to the application's developers. Thanks.
many people say "Kiev" even in Ukraine, but their number is getting down very fast.
This is off-topic, but I'm curious about the pronunciation. I assume your "Kiev" refers to Russian pronunciation. I'm concerned more about pronunciation in English and in Ukrainian. Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv#cite_note-12> says the English-language pronunciation is "/ˈkiːɛv, -ɛf, kiːˈɛv, -ˈɛf/ KEE-ev, -ef, kee-EV, -EF, US also /kiːv/ KEEV" (what a mess, huh?) whereas the Ukrainian pronunciation is simply [ˈkɪjiu̯] with this audio transcription: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Uk-Київ.ogg Is that accurate? If so, English-language speakers aren't pronouncing the name very closely to Ukrainian even with the "Kyiv" spelling, and I'm wondering how to explain proper Ukrainian pronunciation to English-language speakers. Should I say that one should pronounce "v" as if it were "oo", for example? Also, there are several dialects of Ukrainian, such as middle Dnieprian and central Polissian. Do these dialects all pronounce the city's name roughly the same, or are there significant variants? Is the Wikipedia audio middle Dnieprian, for example?
Hi again. Thanks for your answer. I'm glad to see that you are already moving in the "Kyiv" direction. I hope you came to the finish line very soon :) About the pronunciation: I'm not gonna check the transcription but it seems to be okay ([ˈkɪjiu̯]). Audio from wiki is also correct but it's hard to percept from this super short audio :) Found the nice video with this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE1f6GUvG5Y Girl's pronunciation is accurate with great comments for English speakers. The mess in the wiki should be fixed in the short perspective, the Ministry of Culture is bombing with the requests from public organizations leave only Kyiv. And they promise to solve this last few months. We'll see. Do these dialects all pronounce the city's name
roughly the same, or are there significant variants?
Yeap, pronunciation is roughly the same in the common. But in deep villages you may to hear Кійов, Кіїв or even Кійув (Polissian) from old folks (and people from these villages and countries). I can't write a proper transcription for this, sorry. If your software application is exposing the
string "Europe/Kiev" to users who prefer a different name, please send bug reports mentioning CLDR to the application's developers.
Sure I did it many times but application support often says that it's nothing they can do because the timezone name comes from the library their application uses. And library devs say they took timezone names from sources that lay deeper. So we can see things like this: in the different corners of the internet services. [image: image.png] or [image: image.png] On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 11:33 PM Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 1/28/21 1:20 PM, Yaroslav Bilko wrote:
Ukraine started a official campaign (
https://mfa.gov.ua/news/67521-correctua-mzs-ukrajini-zvertajetysya-do-svitu-...
) some time ago to show other countries and mass media that Kyiv is only one true name.
Thanks, we're aware of the renaming effort, and this has been a periodic source of discussion on the tz mailing list. I recently proposed a transition plan for Europe/Kiev → Europe/Kyiv here:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2020-November/029542.html
and I suggest you review that email thread. There's no rush; tzdb tends to move slowly about these things, due to software compatibility concerns.
By the way, the choice of spelling should not be important to end users, as the tzdb spelling is not intended to be visible to them. End users should see their preferred spelling which would typically be Київ, but could also be Kyiv, Kænugarður, Κίεβο, 基輔, or whatever else is appropriate for the user's locale. The Unicode Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR) is a good source for these localized names; see <http://cldr.unicode.org/>. If your software application is exposing the string "Europe/Kiev" to users who prefer a different name, please send bug reports mentioning CLDR to the application's developers. Thanks.
many people say "Kiev" even in Ukraine, but their number is getting down very fast.
This is off-topic, but I'm curious about the pronunciation. I assume your "Kiev" refers to Russian pronunciation. I'm concerned more about pronunciation in English and in Ukrainian.
Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv#cite_note-12> says the English-language pronunciation is "/ˈkiːɛv, -ɛf, kiːˈɛv, -ˈɛf/ KEE-ev, -ef, kee-EV, -EF, US also /kiːv/ KEEV" (what a mess, huh?) whereas the Ukrainian pronunciation is simply [ˈkɪjiu̯] with this audio transcription:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Uk-Київ.ogg
Is that accurate? If so, English-language speakers aren't pronouncing the name very closely to Ukrainian even with the "Kyiv" spelling, and I'm wondering how to explain proper Ukrainian pronunciation to English-language speakers. Should I say that one should pronounce "v" as if it were "oo", for example?
Also, there are several dialects of Ukrainian, such as middle Dnieprian and central Polissian. Do these dialects all pronounce the city's name roughly the same, or are there significant variants? Is the Wikipedia audio middle Dnieprian, for example?
On 2/3/21 4:53 AM, Yaroslav Bilko wrote:
Found the nice video with this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE1f6GUvG5Y Girl's pronunciation is accurate with great comments for English speakers.
Thanks for the link. From that video and its comments it appears that there's not a consensus about whether to pronounce Kyiv's trailing "v" as an English "f", or an English "w". The professor uses "f", but a couple of commenters (and Wikipedia) use "w". Perhaps to a Ukrainian speaker this is no big deal, but in English it matters. For what it's worth, Wikipedia gives [ˈkɪjiu̯] as the IPA spelling of the pronunciation, and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Ukrainian> says that an English approximation to that trailing [u̯] is the "w" in the English word "tow".
On 2021-02-03 10:47, Paul Eggert wrote:
On 2/3/21 4:53 AM, Yaroslav Bilko wrote:
Found the nice video with this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE1f6GUvG5Y Girl's pronunciation is accurate with great comments for English speakers.
Thanks for the link. From that video and its comments it appears that there's not a consensus about whether to pronounce Kyiv's trailing "v" as an English "f", or an English "w". The professor uses "f", but a couple of commenters (and Wikipedia) use "w". Perhaps to a Ukrainian speaker this is no big deal, but in English it matters.
For what it's worth, Wikipedia gives [ˈkɪjiu̯] as the IPA spelling of the pronunciation, and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Ukrainian> says that an English approximation to that trailing [u̯] is the "w" in the English word "tow".
So pronunciation is kyif or kyo or key-o? -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised. [Data in binary units and prefixes, physical quantities in SI.]
On 2/3/21 6:47 PM, Paul Eggert wrote:
On 2/3/21 4:53 AM, Yaroslav Bilko wrote:
Found the nice video with this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE1f6GUvG5Y Girl's pronunciation is accurate with great comments for English speakers.
Thanks for the link. From that video and its comments it appears that there's not a consensus about whether to pronounce Kyiv's trailing "v" as an English "f", or an English "w". The professor uses "f", but a couple of commenters (and Wikipedia) use "w". Perhaps to a Ukrainian speaker this is no big deal, but in English it matters.
Native speakers in some (IMO most, but I did not make any research) Slavian languages (including mine) pronounce trailing "v" as "f", trailing "d" as "t" and so on. They often do the same mistake when speaking English. If you ask locals, they would most probably pronounce trailing "v" in Kyiv as "f" and they would not notice it until you tell them. It is like "we know there should be 'v' and we write it that way, but we pronounce 'f' because we are lazy to articulate". Just my 2 cents :) . Have a nice day, Markéta
participants (4)
-
Brian Inglis -
Marketa Machova -
Paul Eggert -
Yaroslav Bilko