Lots of news agencies are picking up a possible change of time in Spain. http://www.reuters.com/article/spain-timezone-idUSL5N1E744D -- Steve Allen <sla@ucolick.org> WGS-84 (GPS) UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB 260 Natural Sciences II, Room 165 Lat +36.99855 1156 High Street Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng -122.06015 Santa Cruz, CA 95064 http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ Hgt +250 m
Steve Allen wrote:
Lots of news agencies are picking up a possible change of time in Spain.
Yes, that change seems quite plausible. However, that news report merely says Fátima Báñez (the minister of employment and social security in Spain) wants to move Spain from +01/+02 to +00/+01. Since the news report also says the PP (the political party she's a member of) already agreed to this in August, there's nothing new there that I can see. More interesting to me is that the Reuters article said that Franco moved the clocks ahead to "be in line with Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany". We don't have any record of such a switch in our database, I expect because Shanks is wrong.
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016, Paul Eggert wrote:
More interesting to me is that the Reuters article said that Franco moved the clocks ahead to "be in line with Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany". We don't have any record of such a switch in our database, I expect because Shanks is wrong.
It wouldn't be the first time for Shanks to be wrong.... :) +------------------+--------------------------+------------------------+ | Paul Goyette | PGP Key fingerprint: | E-mail addresses: | | (Retired) | FA29 0E3B 35AF E8AE 6651 | paul at whooppee.com | | Kernel Developer | 0786 F758 55DE 53BA 7731 | pgoyette at netbsd.org | +------------------+--------------------------+------------------------+
"Paul" == Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
Paul> More interesting to me is that the Reuters article said that Paul> Franco moved the clocks ahead to "be in line with Adolf Hitler's Paul> Nazi Germany". We don't have any record of such a switch in our Paul> database, I expect because Shanks is wrong. And it might be a translation error, but the article implied moving Spain to "GMT", which would be a non-DST timezone, although also suggesting they'd move to the same timezone as the UK. A common mistake. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. Still trying to think of something clever for the fourth line of this .sig
On 13 December 2016 at 16:11, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
And it might be a translation error, but the article implied moving Spain to "GMT", which would be a non-DST timezone, although also suggesting they'd move to the same timezone as the UK. A common mistake.
It's a bit like "Holland/the Netherlands" or "England/Britain/the UK", I think -- many people seem to use "GMT" in the sense of "the legal time of England" (including the switch to and from summer time). Meanwhile, others use it as a synonym of "UTC". Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>
Randal L. Schwartz said:
And it might be a translation error, but the article implied moving Spain to "GMT", which would be a non-DST timezone, although also suggesting they'd move to the same timezone as the UK. A common mistake.
They'd still be subject to the EU Summer Time Directive, so it has to mean GMT+0/GMT+1 or UTC+0/UTC+1 (I forget which term the Spanish version of the Directive uses). That would put them in line with Portugal as well as the sun. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
More interesting to me is that the Reuters article said that Franco moved the clocks ahead to "be in line with Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany". We don't have any record of such a switch in our database, I expect because Shanks is wrong.
Some information about this switch is mentioned here: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/3146/why-is-spains-base-timezone-... with further links to pursue for more.
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:41 PM, Pierpaolo Bernardi <olopierpa@gmail.com> wrote:
with further links to pursue for more.
This article, as far as I can tell, looks both complete and authoritative: http://astronomia.ign.es/rknowsys-theme/images/webAstro/paginas/documentos/A...
On 13 December 2016 at 14:59, Pierpaolo Bernardi <olopierpa@gmail.com> wrote:
This article, as far as I can tell, looks both complete and authoritative:
http://astronomia.ign.es/rknowsys-theme/images/ webAstro/paginas/documentos/Anuario/lahoraoficialenespana.pdf
I can't read Spanish, but skimming the tables in that article, it seems a lot of switches in the 1910s–1930s were legally at 25:00. So presumably a 25:00 Saturday switch meant that it was legally considered Saturday right up to and including what we would call "00:59:59 Sunday", and only became legally Sunday once the clock fell back an hour to 00:00:00. I think that level of detail is outside the scope of the data itself (and I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a great way to represent it anyway), but is certainly fascinating enough to include in our commentary, if I interpreted it correctly. Can someone with a better comprehension of Spanish confirm and/or translate the relevant parts? -- Tim Parenti
On 12/13/2016 12:13 PM, Tim Parenti wrote:
I can't read Spanish, but skimming the tables in that article, it seems a lot of switches in the 1910s–1930s were legally at 25:00.
I see "25:00" only in the tables, not in the text. So possibly the author is putting in entries to make the values "right" rather than attempting to exactly copy the legislation. That paper is quite helpful. Attached is a proposed patch to fix the tz entries to agree with the paper's for Europe/Madrid. There are still several gaps outside Madrid (and even in Madrid during the chaos of its fall in 1939).
On 13 December 2016 at 17:10, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
I see "25:00" only in the tables, not in the text.
On the contrary, "25h" is referred to a couple times in the text, and based on the following Google translations (emphasis added), it does seem its usage was official in 1918–1938... page 384–385: En el periodo 1918-1938 los avisos de cambio de la hora oficial se realizaron con muy escasa antelación, de unas pocas semanas e, incluso, de días (por ejemplo, en 1929). Además, al realizar los cambios de modo que la nueva hora coincidiera con la medianoche, *el día de otoño en que se recuperaba la hora normal se extendía oficialmente hasta las 25h00min.* In the period 1918-1938 the notices of change of official time were made very short notice, a few weeks and even days (for example, in 1929). In addition, when making the changes so that the new hour coincided with midnight, *the fall day in which the normal time was recovered was officially extended until 25:00.* page 387: Desde 1974 hasta 1977, una orden anual de la Presidencia del Gobierno establecía el inicio del periodo de verano a finales de marzo o principios de abril, pasando las 23h a ser las 24h, y su conclusión a finales de septiembre o principios de octubre, *día en que las 25h pasaban a ser las 0h del día siguiente.*
From 1974 to 1977, an annual Order of the Presidency of the Government established the beginning of the summer period at the end of March or beginning of April, from 11 pm to 12 pm, and its conclusion at the end of September or beginning of October, *day In which the 25h went to be the 0h of the following day.*
-- Tim Parenti
Yes, but that is not true for all the times where this source states 25. According the the official publications of the decrees mentioned, the legal length of the day is 25 hours (and the change happens at 25) on 1918 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1918/266/A00830-00830.pdf) 1919 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1919/266/A00992-00992.pdf) but the change happens at 24 on 1924 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1924/269/A01496-01496.pdf) 1926 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1926/100/A00194-00195.pdf) 1927 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1927/272/A01776-01776.pdf) 1928 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1928/092/A00004-00004.pdf) 1937 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1937/268/B01214-01214.pdf) 1938 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1938/274/B00002-00002.pdf) and it happens at 1 on 1929 (see http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1929/107/A00295-00295.pdf) Carlos Perasso On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Tim Parenti <tim@timtimeonline.com> wrote:
On 13 December 2016 at 17:10, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
I see "25:00" only in the tables, not in the text.
On the contrary, "25h" is referred to a couple times in the text, and based on the following Google translations (emphasis added), it does seem its usage was official in 1918–1938...
page 384–385:
En el periodo 1918-1938 los avisos de cambio de la hora oficial se realizaron con muy escasa antelación, de unas pocas semanas e, incluso, de días (por ejemplo, en 1929). Además, al realizar los cambios de modo que la nueva hora coincidiera con la medianoche, *el día de otoño en que se recuperaba la hora normal se extendía oficialmente hasta las 25h00min.*
In the period 1918-1938 the notices of change of official time were made very short notice, a few weeks and even days (for example, in 1929). In addition, when making the changes so that the new hour coincided with midnight, *the fall day in which the normal time was recovered was officially extended until 25:00.*
page 387:
Desde 1974 hasta 1977, una orden anual de la Presidencia del Gobierno establecía el inicio del periodo de verano a finales de marzo o principios de abril, pasando las 23h a ser las 24h, y su conclusión a finales de septiembre o principios de octubre, *día en que las 25h pasaban a ser las 0h del día siguiente.*
From 1974 to 1977, an annual Order of the Presidency of the Government established the beginning of the summer period at the end of March or beginning of April, from 11 pm to 12 pm, and its conclusion at the end of September or beginning of October, *day In which the 25h went to be the 0h of the following day.*
-- Tim Parenti
Thanks, I had overlooked those '25h's. I'm afraid I'm not seeing how to summarize all this in the 'europe' file, though. Perhaps something like this? Officially, in the 1918 and 1919 fallback transitions the clock for the long day kept going after 24:00, reaching 24:59 the previous day before falling back an hour to 00:00 the next day. As this behavior is not representable in this database, it is modeled instead as the clock reaching 00:59 the next day before falling back to 00:00.
On 13 December 2016 at 19:12, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
Perhaps something like this?
Officially, in the 1918 and 1919 fallback transitions the clock for the long day kept going after 24:00, reaching 24:59 the previous day before falling back an hour to 00:00 the next day. As this behavior is not representable in this database, it is modeled instead as the clock reaching 00:59 the next day before falling back to 00:00.
I think something like that is best. Certainly the kind of peculiarity one can appreciate here! =) Looking at those decrees (again with only Google Translate to help me) though, I don't think they actually called the time 24:59 or 25:00, but rather just 01:00. From the 1918 one Carlos linked (emphasis added): S. M. el Rey (q. D. g.) se ha servido disponer que para el cumplimiento del
articulo 2. del Real decreto de 3 de Abril último, relativo al cambio de hora, la duración legal del día 6 de Octubre próximo será de veinticinco horas, al término de las cuales, y *cuando los relojes marquen la una,* se retrasarán hasta las veinticuatro, para comenzar las cero horas del día 7.
HM the King (D.D.G.) has served to provide that for the fulfillment of Article 2 of the Royal Decree of April 3, relative to the change of time, the legal duration of the next October 6 will be twenty-five Hours, at the end of which, and *when the clocks mark one,* they will be delayed until twenty-four, to begin the zero hours of day 7.
So the legal length of 1918-10-06 was 25 hours, and included the hour after midnight, which we here would call 24:00:00 to 24:59:59, before the new day began. Likewise in 1919. The legal distinction just raises the interesting point about how *we* would represent that timestamp in modernity. As an aside, this got me thinking about possible alternative ways of implementing DST where the (legal) days are all of equal length. Indeed, if we just numbered each day in DST from 01:00:00 through 24:59:59 rather than 00:00:00 through 23:59:59, that sure would be an interesting way of handling it! (Alas, that's not what happened here.) -- Tim Parenti
On 12/13/2016 04:24 PM, Tim Parenti wrote:
The legal distinction just raises the interesting point about how /we/ would represent that timestamp in modernity.
I installed the attached to try to document this. This version of the commentary avoids the neologism "24:59". Anyway, thanks for bringing up this point of confusion; this one is a new one for me. I suppose a similar thing could occur at the *start* of a day. That is, on Saturday at 23:59..., instead of jumping back to Saturday at 23:00, the clock could jump "back" to Sunday at 23:00, then continue on through Sunday at 00:00, 01:00, ..., 23:00, and finally repeat the hour of Sunday at 23:00. Although this seems even less likely than what Spain did in 1918, one never knows what politicians will do....
On 13 December 2016 at 19:12, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
Officially, in the 1918 and 1919 fallback transitions the clock for the long day kept going after 24:00, reaching 24:59 the previous day before falling back an hour to 00:00 the next day. As this behavior is not representable in this database, it is modeled instead as the clock reaching 00:59 the next day before falling back to 00:00.
Er, remove "the previous day" for consistency about which day we're talking about. ;) -- Tim Parenti
On 2016-12-13 17:26, Tim Parenti wrote:
On 2016-12-13 19:12, Paul Eggert wrote:
Officially, in the 1918 and 1919 fallback transitions the clock for the long day kept going after 24:00, reaching 24:59 the previous day before falling back an hour to 00:00 the next day. As this behavior is not representable in this database, it is modeled instead as the clock reaching 00:59 the next day before falling back to 00:00. Er, remove "the previous day" for consistency about which day we're talking about. ;)
...and check the day you end up with is Sunday, unless explicitly documented otherwise, and even then, be very sceptical ;^> We encountered this in an earlier discussion, about war time Italy IIRC, where there was ambiguity in a similar "definitive" document containing non-explicit tabular data, resolvable by checking the weekdays on which time changes fell. For that and similar reasons, I now detest (standard?) date formats that do not include or allow day of week, as a quick reasonableness check, as well as UTC offset, for some certainty of the time meant. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
On 2016-12-13 22:10, Paul Eggert wrote about Planesas' paper:
That paper is quite helpful. Attached is a proposed patch to fix the tz entries to agree with the paper's for Europe/Madrid. There are still several gaps outside Madrid (and even in Madrid during the chaos of its fall in 1939).
Perhaps the instant of the switch to time zone time for Europe/Madrid could also be corrected. The Royal Decree of 1900-06-26 quoted by Planesas, online at [https://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1900/209/A00383-00384.pdf] says in its article 5 (my translation): These dispositions will enter into force beginning with the instant at which, according to the time indicated in article 1, the 1st day of January of 1901 will begin. The time in article 1 is GMT = WET. Thus: - Zone Europe/Madrid -0:14:44 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 0:00s + Zone Europe/Madrid -0:14:44 - LMT 1900 Dec 31 23:45:16 Michael Deckers.
participants (11)
-
Brian Inglis -
Carlos Raúl Perasso -
Clive D.W. Feather -
merlyn＠stonehenge.com -
Michael Deckers -
Paul Eggert -
Paul Goyette -
Philip Newton -
Pierpaolo Bernardi -
Steve Allen -
Tim Parenti