Re: Revisiting Australian time zone abbreviations

[[ sorry, I was unable to keep References: and In-Reply-To: ids, ]] [[ this is a continuation of http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/3244/focus=3251 ]] Paul Eggert <eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU> writes:
The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), ...
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Actually, it could be.
Different websites operated by the government of Australia use different names and abbreviations. The Bureau of Meteorology often uses EST/CST/WST and EDT/CDT; see, for example, <http://www.bom.gov.au/satellite/about_satpix.shtml>. And the Australian Transport Safety Bureau often uses EST/CST/WST and ESuT/CSuT; see, for example, <http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/690841/ar-2009-016(2).pdf>.
I had never heard of the atsb prior to your email. At the time of writing the atsb link does not exist.
The tz database's philosophy has generally tried to record what people typically do with their clocks and their abbreviations. If one government agency says that it's AEST/AEDT, that's a good piece of evidence; but if other agencies disagree, that's evidence that there's not a solid consensus within the government what the abbreviations are or should be.
I suspect if you approached most American government agencies and asked what is the official paper size, they would respond with 'letter'. Despite the fact that it is actually A4 -- the US being a metric country. My point is that there will always being different parts of the goverment in many countries unaware of what is actually official (technically Australia uses 24-hour time, most people would be unaware of this).
The most amusing thing about <http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our- country/time>, the web page that Richard Stanway quoted, was this little message at its bottom:
"All times shown are Sydney, Australia Time"
In other words, the Australian government doesn't follow its own advice on time zone names and abbreviations, even on the government page that talks about time zone names! They just say the equivalent of "TZ=Australia/Sydney"!
You may not have hovered over the link, http://australia.gov.au/about- australia/our-country/time, however. Yes, that may be what the text says, if you hover over it, it says: "Australian Eastern Standard Time Sydney (AEST)". Which I think should be plenty of evidence that it is time, pun intended, to switch to AEST/ACST/AWST and AEDT/ACDT as appropriate. Regards, Anand

On 02/17/2011 03:18 AM, Anand Kumria wrote:
I had never heard of the atsb prior to your email.
The ATSB is an important Australian government organization and is often in news reports.
At the time of writing the atsb link does not exist.
It's been updated to version 3. Here's the current URL: http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1525905/ar2009016(3).pdf
The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), ...
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Actually, it could be.
No doubt it *could* be. But that's for Australians to do, not us. It's not the tz database's job to impose standard names or abbreviations on Australians.

Paul, On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 02/17/2011 03:18 AM, Anand Kumria wrote:
I had never heard of the atsb prior to your email.
The ATSB is an important Australian government organization and is often in news reports.
As an Australian, I have never heard of it prior to your email. Nor have I have ever heard it referenced in any news report in Australia. That is TV, radio and newspapers. Are you (the tz database maintainers) attempting to say that because an organisation that many, if not most, Australians would be hard pressed to identify, the tz database should not be corrected to match the values in use within Australia?
The government website of Australia states the time zone names for Australia are Australian Eastern Standard Time (AEST), ...
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Actually, it could be.
No doubt it *could* be. But that's for Australians to do, not us. It's not the tz database's job to impose standard names or abbreviations on Australians.
Australians HAVE decided. You pointed out, what you thought were good reasons that various bodies did not hold a consistent view of time. The fundamental one, from my point of view, being that http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time says "Sydney, Australia Time" but when you hover it -- it says "Australian Eastern Standard Time Sydney (AEST)". To reiterative, Australians HAVE decided, it is now the tz database's job to implement that decision. Thanks, Anand

On 02/18/2011 09:03 AM, Anand Kumria wrote:
Nor have I have ever heard it referenced in any news report in Australia.
That's odd, as I hear of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau in a lot of foreign newspapers, such as the Economist, the Wall Street Journal, and the New York Times. And the ATSB regularly appears in the Australian press as well. For example, here's one of the many articles in today's papers that mentions the ATSB: Matt O'Sullivan, New problem hits Qantas A380 engine. Sydney Morning Herald, 2011-02-18. <http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/new-problem-hits-qantas-a380-engine...> Anyway, this thread is starting to veer from the main topic. Perhaps some Australians could chime in?

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
Anyway, this thread is starting to veer from the main topic. Perhaps some Australians could chime in?
Have in the past, but it never seems to help. Australian abbreviations in the tz database are nuts, and are the poster child for talking about timezone confusions. All the Australians I've discussed it personally with think it nuts. I've heard numerous anecdotes about the problems it causes, and people think it will continue to cause problems until it is fixed. And fixed is the word people use, but it never gets fixed due to concerns about some antique VMS system wheezing away in a basement that will explode killing many small puppies because it relies on the local timezone abbreviation remaining static. Somehow this system is so fragile it can't cope with the outside world evolving, yet receiving regular updates to its timezone database. So Australians are stuck putting up with this problem (and problem is the word people use), because politicians are busy trying to run the country (or whatever they do) rather than playing bureaucrats and blessing abbreviations to appease a committee for reasons they don't understand, because they run Windows and Windows doesn't use ambiguous timezone abbreviations. Especially since nobody really seems sure *which* politicians should bless them. State or National? Nobody in power cares enough to risk their careers to cough up the funds to work out the constitutional legalities of who can and how to perform such a blessing necessary because a loosely organized international volunteer non-profit group can't make their own decisions. Sorry for ranting. I think this is the point I get directed to the 20 year old anecdote in the Australasia file, which also happens to be the exact opposite of my recollection from growing up in Melbourne at the time (We had daylight savings time in my neighborhood; must have been all those immigrants and listening to 3XY rather than the ABC.) And maybe this will be the last time someone requests an Australian opinion rather than a civil one ;) -- Stuart Bishop <stuart@stuartbishop.net> http://www.stuartbishop.net/

Confusion over Reference Data strikes again!!! Bonnie K. O'Neil CBIP, CDMP Enterprise Data Architect Travelport Global Technology Solutions Office: 303-397-5239 Mobile: 303-725-1737 -----Original Message----- From: Stuart Bishop [mailto:stuart@stuartbishop.net] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:01 AM To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Cc: Paul Eggert; Anand Kumria; tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Revisiting Australian time zone abbreviations On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
Anyway, this thread is starting to veer from the main topic. Perhaps some Australians could chime in?
Have in the past, but it never seems to help. Australian abbreviations in the tz database are nuts, and are the poster child for talking about timezone confusions. All the Australians I've discussed it personally with think it nuts. I've heard numerous anecdotes about the problems it causes, and people think it will continue to cause problems until it is fixed. And fixed is the word people use, but it never gets fixed due to concerns about some antique VMS system wheezing away in a basement that will explode killing many small puppies because it relies on the local timezone abbreviation remaining static. Somehow this system is so fragile it can't cope with the outside world evolving, yet receiving regular updates to its timezone database. So Australians are stuck putting up with this problem (and problem is the word people use), because politicians are busy trying to run the country (or whatever they do) rather than playing bureaucrats and blessing abbreviations to appease a committee for reasons they don't understand, because they run Windows and Windows doesn't use ambiguous timezone abbreviations. Especially since nobody really seems sure *which* politicians should bless them. State or National? Nobody in power cares enough to risk their careers to cough up the funds to work out the constitutional legalities of who can and how to perform such a blessing necessary because a loosely organized international volunteer non-profit group can't make their own decisions. Sorry for ranting. I think this is the point I get directed to the 20 year old anecdote in the Australasia file, which also happens to be the exact opposite of my recollection from growing up in Melbourne at the time (We had daylight savings time in my neighborhood; must have been all those immigrants and listening to 3XY rather than the ABC.) And maybe this will be the last time someone requests an Australian opinion rather than a civil one ;) -- Stuart Bishop <stuart@stuartbishop.net> http://www.stuartbishop.net/ If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, please notify the sender and delete all copies immediately. The sender believes this message and any attachments were sent free of any virus, worm, Trojan horse, and other forms of malicious code. This message and its attachments could have been infected during transmission. The recipient opens any attachments at the recipient's own risk, and in so doing, the recipient accepts full responsibility for such actions and agrees to take protective and remedial action relating to any malicious code. Travelport is not liable for any loss or damage arising from this message or its attachments.
participants (4)
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Anand Kumria
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O'Neil, Bonnie
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Paul Eggert
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Stuart Bishop