Norfolk Island, Daylight Saving Time (DST) 6/10/19-05/04/20 [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Please be advised that there will be a time zone change for Norfolk Island as of October 6, 2019. The Ordinance for the time zone change was passed in December last year https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01702 and will come into effect October 6, 2019. Please note the below in regards to change of time observed: daylight saving period means: (a) a period starting at 2 am on the first Sunday in October in each year and ending at 2 am on the first Sunday in the following April; or (b) if the Minister declares a different period under section 4A of this Ordinance-that period. daylight saving time means the time prescribed by section 7 of this Ordinance. standard time means the time prescribed by section 6 of this Ordinance. Further information is available here: https://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/facts-and-figures/time-zones-an... If you have any questions please let me know. Thank you, Kyle Kyle Czech [http://portals/entr/business-services/communications-and-media/publishing-and-design/Logos/DoITCRD_Inline.jpg]Community, Local Government and Assets Norfolk Island and Mainland Territories Branch, Territories Division Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Cities and Regional Development t 0011 6723 23315 w www.infrastructure.gov.au<http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer This message has been issued by the Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities. The information transmitted is for the use of the intended recipient only and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, disclosure, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result in severe penalties. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the Department on (02) 6274-7111 and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kyle Czech wrote:
Please be advised that there will be a time zone change for Norfolk Island as of October 6, 2019.
The Ordinance for the time zone change was passed in December last yearhttps://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01702 and will come into effect October 6, 2019.
Thanks for the heads-up. I just visited <https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01702> and found that it says that F2018L01702 is "No longer in force". The web page details say that F2018L01702 was registered 2018-12-07, tabled 2019-02-12, and repealed 2019-08-02 by Division 1 of Part 3 of Chapter 3 of the Legislation Act 2003, which contains a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that I don't understand. Could you please clarify what happened on August 2? Also, F2018L01702 says that DST ends at 02:00 on the first Sunday in April. I guess this means 02:00 standard time not 02:00 daylight-saving time. Is my guess correct? Thanks.
On 2019-08-14 02:30, Paul Eggert wrote:
Kyle Czech wrote:
Please be advised that there will be a time zone change for Norfolk Island as of October 6, 2019.
The Ordinance for the time zone change was passed in December last yearhttps://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01702 and will come into effect October 6, 2019.
Thanks for the heads-up. I just visited <https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L01702> and found that it says that F2018L01702 is "No longer in force". The web page details say that F2018L01702 was registered 2018-12-07, tabled 2019-02-12, and repealed 2019-08-02 by Division 1 of Part 3 of Chapter 3 of the Legislation Act 2003, which contains a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that I don't understand.
Amendment incorporated into Norfolk Island Standard Time Ordinance 2015 https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2019C00010 compilation of 8 December 2018 incorporating F2018L01702 registered 3 January 2019. Division 1 of Part 3 of Chapter 3 of the Legislation Act 2003 in https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019C00084 deletes legislation that only changes other legislation once the changes have been applied to the legislation amended and the new version resistered: 48A Automatic repeal of amending and repealing instruments (1) Subject to subsection (2), this section repeals a legislative instrument or notifiable instrument whose only legal effect is to amend or repeal one or more other legislative instruments or notifiable instruments, without making any application, saving or transitional provisions relating to the amendment or repeal. Effect of repeal (3) The repeal of the instrument by this section does not affect any amendment or repeal made by the instrument. This does not limit the effect of section 7 of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 as it applies in relation to the repeal of the instrument by this section because of section 13 of this Act.
Could you please clarify what happened on August 2?
Something triggered deleting the amendment but after its application to the act.
Also, F2018L01702 says that DST ends at 02:00 on the first Sunday in April. I guess this means 02:00 standard time not 02:00 daylight-saving time. Is my guess correct?
Legislation uses legal time in effect, which is daylight saving time until the change. The amended 2015 act says: 8 References to time etc. (1) Subsection (2) applies if: (a) a legal instrument includes an expression of time; or (b) the doing or refraining from doing anything at, before or after a certain time has an effect in law. (2) Unless there is a contrary intention, the time must be determined using: (a) standard time; or (b) for a time within a daylight saving period—daylight saving time. ... (4) Subsection (2) applies in relation to a legal instrument even if the instrument was made before the commencement of this section. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.
On 2019-08-14 17:52, Brian Inglis wrote:
Also, F2018L01702 says that DST ends at 02:00 on the first Sunday in April. I guess this means 02:00 standard time not 02:00 daylight-saving time. Is my guess correct? Legislation uses legal time in effect, which is daylight saving time until the change. The amended 2015 act says:
8 References to time etc. (1) Subsection (2) applies if: (a) a legal instrument includes an expression of time; or (b) the doing or refraining from doing anything at, before or after a certain time has an effect in law. (2) Unless there is a contrary intention, the time must be determined using: (a) standard time; or (b) for a time within a daylight saving period—daylight saving time. ... (4) Subsection (2) applies in relation to a legal instrument even if the instrument was made before the commencement of this section.
The ice may be thin here, but [https://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/facts-and-figures/time-zones-an...] confirms that, in the definition of the dst periods, both the start and the end points of those periods are meant to be designated by values of the time scale without any dst offset is applied to it -- the offset is not even defined at that point. Michael Deckers.
On 2019-08-14 15:07, Michael H Deckers wrote:
On 2019-08-14 17:52, Brian Inglis wrote:
Also, F2018L01702 says that DST ends at 02:00 on the first Sunday in April. I guess this means 02:00 standard time not 02:00 daylight-saving time. Is my guess correct? Legislation uses legal time in effect, which is daylight saving time until the change. The amended 2015 act says:
8 References to time etc. (1) Subsection (2) applies if: (a) a legal instrument includes an expression of time; or (b) the doing or refraining from doing anything at, before or after a certain time has an effect in law. (2) Unless there is a contrary intention, the time must be determined using: (a) standard time; or (b) for a time within a daylight saving period—daylight saving time. ... (4) Subsection (2) applies in relation to a legal instrument even if the instrument was made before the commencement of this section.
The ice may be thin here, but [https://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/facts-and-figures/time-zones-an...] confirms that, in the definition of the dst periods, both the start and the end points of those periods are meant to be designated by values of the time scale without any dst offset is applied to it -- the offset is not even defined at that point.
As thin as in an Australian winter: that page is not "normative" legislation, which by default refers to the local legal time in effect in the reference, as stated in 8(1) and 8(2) above, unless explicitly stated otherwise in the legislation, and the missing 8(3) above allows that only in legislation amending time. Of course that 2015 act, as amended, applies only to Norfolk island time, and could be wrong, as few bureaucrats or politicians are aware, know, or care much about time zones, and how best to specify those explicitly referring to time zones using terms such as standard, summer, daylight saving, or GMT/UTC offset. Such rules would only apply to federal legislation, which affects ACT, areas, and possessions under federal control, probably not states and territories, unless they have to conform to federal standards, similar to the US. References should be provided to interpretative legislation, or discrepancies clarified in the appropriate legislation. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.
Brian Inglis wrote:
As thin as in an Australian winter: that page is not "normative" legislation, which by default refers to the local legal time in effect in the reference, as stated in 8(1) and 8(2)
Unfortunately the Norfolk Island legislation is ambiguous. By stating that DST ends at 2 o'clock, it allows either a 02:00->01:00 transition (which occurs at 2 o'clock local time, valid legal daylight saving time at the instant of transition), or a 03:00->02:00 transition (which also occurs at 2 o'clock local time, valid legal standard time at the instant of transition). This ambiguity is inherent to timestamps near a fallback transition. It's not an ambiguity that can occur with tzdb timestamps, since our digital clocks would tick from 01:59.999999999 to 01:00 (or from 02:59.999999999 to 02:00) during a fallback transition. However, it can occur in the continuous-time model that legislation invariably uses. Possibly the Norfolk Island legislation copied boilerplate from other Australian law, in which case the legal wording is ambiguous elsewhere in Australia. It would be helpful if the Australians would add a phrase or two to disambiguate this, the next time they change their DST laws.
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 17:26:45 -0700 From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <fc45b3fc-294e-8f9d-ecee-6c317f5255c1@cs.ucla.edu> | It would be helpful if the Australians would add a phrase or two to | disambiguate this, the next time they change their DST laws. The Victorian Summer Time Act (1972) includes (section 3, paragraph 2)... (2) In this section the expression " the hour of two o'clock in the morning" means that hour as determined by standard time. [this section (in paragraph (1) is where the summer time rule is set out ... the one in the act has since been amended, different times of the year, but the time of day was not altered.] I doubt any more disambiguation is needed. I haven't gone hunting in all of the other states' legislation, nor whatever applies to ACT and NT (and the various othe routlying territories, even if I could work out who or what was responsible in each case) but I would suspect that many of them contain similar wording. In any case, there is no question but that when summer time ends, the clocks move backwards from 02:59.999999999 (summer time) to 02:00.000000 (standard time) in all Australian jurisdictions - not because anything forces that to be so (there's no overriding power anywhere here) but just because everyone cooperated and made it be that way. Further, given: (2) Unless there is a contrary intention, the time must be determined using: (a) standard time; or (b) for a time within a daylight saving period?daylight saving time. that is also clear - the boundaries of summer time (or "daylight saving time" for some weird reason in Norfolk) are not "within" a daylight saving period, they are the edges of it, hence (2)(b) does not apply, which means that (2)(a) is what is left, and so standard time is used to interpret those boundary times. kre
On 2019-08-14 19:48, Robert Elz wrote: On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 17:26:45 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote:
| It would be helpful if the Australians would add a phrase or two to | disambiguate this, the next time they change their DST laws. The Victorian Summer Time Act (1972) includes (section 3, paragraph 2)... (2) In this section the expression "the hour of two o'clock in the morning" means that hour as determined by standard time. [this section (in paragraph (1) is where the summer time rule is set out ... the one in the act has since been amended, different times of the year, but the time of day was not altered.] I doubt any more disambiguation is needed. I haven't gone hunting in all of the other states' legislation, nor whatever applies to ACT and NT (and the various othe routlying territories, even if I could work out who or what was responsible in each case) but I would suspect that many of them contain similar wording. In any case, there is no question but that when summer time ends, the clocks move backwards from 02:59.999999999 (summer time) to 02:00.000000 (standard time) in all Australian jurisdictions - not because anything forces that to be so (there's no overriding power anywhere here) but just because everyone cooperated and made it be that way. Further, given: (2) Unless there is a contrary intention, the time must be determined using: (a) standard time; or (b) for a time within a daylight saving period-daylight saving time. that is also clear - the boundaries of summer time (or "daylight saving time" for some weird reason in Norfolk) are not "within" a daylight saving period, they are the edges of it, hence (2)(b) does not apply, which means that (2)(a) is what is left, and so standard time is used to interpret those boundary times.
Courts often disagree with these edge case arguments, mainly raised by proprietors of licensed premises, caught extending drinking times by an extra hour at transitions. ;^> -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.
On 2019-08-15 01:48, Robert Elz wrote:
In any case, there is no question but that when summer time ends, the clocks move backwards from 02:59.999999999 (summer time) to 02:00.000000 (standard time) in all Australian jurisdictions - not because anything forces that to be so (there's no overriding power anywhere here) but just because everyone cooperated and made it be that way.
Yes. By the same token, the line of Zone Pacific/Norfolk: 11:30 1:00 +1230 1975 Mar 2 02:00 should probably be changed to read 11:30 1:00 +1230 1975 Mar 2 02:00s so that both switches 1974..1975 agree with the Rule AN for NSW. Michael Deckers.
Michael H Deckers via tz wrote:
the line of Zone Pacific/Norfolk: 11:30 1:00 +1230 1975 Mar 2 02:00 should probably be changed to read 11:30 1:00 +1230 1975 Mar 2 02:00s so that both switches 1974..1975 agree with the Rule AN for NSW.
Thanks for reporting that. I installed the attached.
Hi all, Please see further clarification below from our legislation and policy team. The references to ‘2am’ in the definition of ‘daylight saving period’ in s 4 of the Norfolk Island Standard Time Ordinance 2015 should be read as references to ‘standard time’. That is, the ‘daylight saving period’ begins at 2am (‘standard time’) on the first Sunday in October, when clocks are put forward one hour. It ends at 2am ‘standard time’ (which is 3am ‘daylight saving time’) on the first Sunday in April, when clocks are put back one hour. The relevant provisions in the Norfolk Island Standard Time Ordinance 2015 are based on the equivalent legislative provisions in the other Australian jurisdictions where daylight saving is observed. Accordingly, these arrangements regarding the commencement and ending of the ‘daylight saving period’ are consistent with the other Australian jurisdictions where daylight saving is observed. See https://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/facts-and-figures/time-zones-an... Regards, Kyle Kyle Czech Community, Local Government and Assets Norfolk Island and Mainland Territories Branch, Territories Division Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Cities and Regional Development t 0011 6723 23315 (DITCRD) t 0011 6723 22152 (OoA) m 0011 6723 53523 w www.infrastructure.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Paul Eggert [mailto:eggert@cs.ucla.edu] Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2019 11:27 AM To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Cc: Time zone mailing list <tz@iana.org>; Kyle Czech <Kyle.Czech@infrastructure.gov.au> Subject: Re: [tz] Norfolk Island, Daylight Saving Time (DST) 6/10/19-05/04/20 [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Brian Inglis wrote:
As thin as in an Australian winter: that page is not "normative" legislation, which by default refers to the local legal time in effect in the reference, as stated in 8(1) and 8(2)
Unfortunately the Norfolk Island legislation is ambiguous. By stating that DST ends at 2 o'clock, it allows either a 02:00->01:00 transition (which occurs at 2 o'clock local time, valid legal daylight saving time at the instant of transition), or a 03:00->02:00 transition (which also occurs at 2 o'clock local time, valid legal standard time at the instant of transition). This ambiguity is inherent to timestamps near a fallback transition. It's not an ambiguity that can occur with tzdb timestamps, since our digital clocks would tick from 01:59.999999999 to 01:00 (or from 02:59.999999999 to 02:00) during a fallback transition. However, it can occur in the continuous-time model that legislation invariably uses. Possibly the Norfolk Island legislation copied boilerplate from other Australian law, in which case the legal wording is ambiguous elsewhere in Australia. It would be helpful if the Australians would add a phrase or two to disambiguate this, the next time they change their DST laws. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer This message has been issued by the Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities. The information transmitted is for the use of the intended recipient only and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, disclosure, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result in severe penalties. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the Department on (02) 6274-7111 and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (5)
-
Brian Inglis -
Kyle Czech -
Michael H Deckers -
Paul Eggert -
Robert Elz