St Andrews meridian in the 17th century
Now that we don’t have to think about a possible future Europe/Glasgow zone (postings back in August) for several years at least, here’s a bit of Scottish history to consider instead. St Andrews, on the Fife coast in the east of Scotland, had a meridian line set up some 200 years before Greenwich. Here’s a quote from a press release from the University of St Andrews, who have just created a memorial to mark this line: "The 17th Century Scottish astronomer and scientific pioneer James Gregory laid down a meridian line across the floor of his lab at St Andrews University in 1673, almost 200 years before the Greenwich Meridian was established and arbitrarily adopted as the world’s official prime meridian. "Now St Andrews has recognised Gregory’s remarkable body of work with a permanent public memorial – a solid brass line which follows exactly the line of his meridian and bisects the pavement in South Street, St Andrews.” This story was picked up by The Times and the BBC (and probably others I haven’t seen). As well as the line on the lab floor there was a sighting mark outside a window and a stone marker on a hill 2.4km away. This still exists and is marked on Ordnance Survey maps. Some URLs: The University of St Andrews press release: <http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/news/archive/2014/title,250213,en.php> BBC piece: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29474850> The Times piece (which is behind their paywall): <http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4224136.ece> Map showing St Andrews and Gregory’s Pillar (marked with arrow): <http://www.streetmap.co.uk/idld.srf?X=350994&Y=715496&A=Y&Z=115&lm=1&ax=3509...> Peter Ilieve
On 05/10/14 15:48, Peter Ilieve wrote:
"The 17th Century Scottish astronomer and scientific pioneer James Gregory laid down a meridian line across the floor of his lab at St Andrews University in 1673, almost 200 years before the Greenwich Meridian was established and arbitrarily adopted as the world’s official prime meridian.
But the Ferro meridian was established in 1634. So there are several counter claims on who was 'first' ... It is this area that wy own interests lie, and it is not clear from the limited data provided on James Gregory if his meridian was actually associated with setting time anywhere other than St. Andrew? Just what was the spread of usage of common time across the UK back in the 17th century? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
On 5 Oct 2014, at 17:18, Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk> wrote:
It is this area that wy own interests lie, and it is not clear from the limited data provided on James Gregory if his meridian was actually associated with setting time anywhere other than St. Andrew? Just what was the spread of usage of common time across the UK back in the 17th century?
Yes, I noticed that the St Andrews press release didn’t say anything about this meridian being used to define local time back then, even for the town, let alone anywhere else. It only mentions astronomical observations. A couple of minor points: The town, and hence the university, is St Andrews. It’s the saint who is Andrew. Maybe your ? was just a typo. It wasn’t really the UK in the 17th century. Scotland was a separate kingdom, although under the same King as England post the union of the crowns in 1603. Those kingdoms weren’t united until the union of the parliaments in 1707. Peter Ilieve
On 05/10/14 18:33, Peter Ilieve wrote:
On 5 Oct 2014, at 17:18, Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk> wrote:
It is this area that wy own interests lie, and it is not clear from the limited data provided on James Gregory if his meridian was actually associated with setting time anywhere other than St. Andrew? Just what was the spread of usage of common time across the UK back in the 17th century?
Yes, I noticed that the St Andrews press release didn’t say anything about this meridian being used to define local time back then, even for the town, let alone anywhere else. It only mentions astronomical observations. Many of the meridians Paul mentions are simply astronomical reference point rather than 'timezone identifiers'?
A couple of minor points:
The town, and hence the university, is St Andrews. It’s the saint who is Andrew. Maybe your ? was just a typo. typo ... I've had a couple of new keyboards, but I'm back with the one which screws up occasionally just for it's feel ... 's' is one that gets missed
It wasn’t really the UK in the 17th century. Scotland was a separate kingdom, although under the same King as England post the union of the crowns in 1603. Those kingdoms weren’t united until the union of the parliaments in 1707. There are many reasons why Europe/London is not right going back in time :) The Isle of Man is not actually part of the UK either even today.
-- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
Peter Ilieve wrote:
I'm afraid the BBC piece is quite wrong. It leads with "A Scottish astronomer and scientist is thought to have laid the first meridian line" but Gregory was definitely not the first. A famous earlier example is the meridian line in the Basilica of San Petronio, Bologna, placed there in 1575-6 by the Italian astronomer Ignazio Danti and greatly improved in 1655-7 (and restored in 1695) by Cassini. This was a working meridian line; among other things, Cassini used it to measure the diameter of the Sun, to verify Kepler's second law, and (more relevant for the tz database) to dispel doubts about whether the year 1700 should be a leap year. You can see a photo of part of the current version of that line here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Bologna060.jpg and there's some background here: http://www.imcce.fr/host/meridienne/italie.php My guess is that Dr John Amson told the BBC reporter that Gregory's line was the first line that was so long (2.4 km) and accurate, and the reporter jumped to the incorrect conclusion that it was the the first line ever.
Peter Ilieve <peter@aldie.co.uk> wrote:
St Andrews, on the Fife coast in the east of Scotland, had a meridian line set up some 200 years before Greenwich.
Dunno how they got 200 years from the difference between 1673 (Gregory's St Andrews meridian) and 1721 (Halley's transit circle) or 1750 (the Bradley meridian, used for the Ordnance Survey). Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Trafalgar: Cyclonic in northwest, otherwise mainly northerly or northwesterly 5 or 6. Slight or moderate. Showers in northwest. Good.
On 2014-10-06 05:16, Tony Finch wrote:
Dunno how they got 200 years from the difference between 1673 (Gregory's St Andrews meridian) and 1721 (Halley's transit circle) or 1750 (the Bradley meridian, used for the Ordnance Survey).
Quote was: "almost 200 years before the Greenwich Meridian was established and arbitrarily adopted as the world’s official prime meridian." Airy transit circle installed 1851 and defined as Prime Meridian at International Meridian Conference in 1884. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
participants (5)
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Brian Inglis -
Lester Caine -
Paul Eggert -
Peter Ilieve -
Tony Finch