Michael Douma is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Michael Douma [mailto:doumalist@michaeldouma.com] Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 2:49 PM To: calNDR-L@ECUMAIL7.ECU.EDU Cc: Carl D. Goldin; tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Daylight Saving Time - Palestine Greetings, Do you know of groups (other than the Palestinians) that have decided to use THEIR OWN DST dates, independent of their surrounding country? I am interested in both past and present. I am in discussions right now with a gentleman named Carl D. Goldin, about the observance of Daylight Saving Time in the world. He has pointed out that if I list the Palestinians on a web site about DST, that it is only fair to list other non-country entities. I included information from Amos Shapir in the TZ archive about Palestine. http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/g.html I don't think this has ever com up on the list, and I have skimmed the TZ archives. Michael On Monday, April 8, 2002, at 01:53 PM, Carl D. Goldin wrote:
1) My objection, and that of the others who wrote you on the subject, is that there is currently no country by the name of "Palestine". So, it is inaccurate (and an offensive political stattement) to include it in your list of "countries", just as it would be to include disputed territories such as the Kashmir, aspiring nations such as the Basque Republic, former nations such as Rhodesia, or unclassifiable entities such as Aryan Nations.
------------------------------------------- Michael Douma Editor, WebExhibits http://webexhibits.org/
From: Michael Douma [mailto:doumalist@michaeldouma.com] Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 2:49 PM
Do you know of groups (other than the Palestinians) that have decided to
use THEIR OWN DST dates, independent of their surrounding country? I am interested in both past and present.
Sure, lots of them. The Navajo Nation is one example. They have an entry "America/Shiprock" in the tz database. However, we don't have time to track every place that sets its clocks differently, so we mostly stick to widespread de facto use, or de jure use. Admittedly the line is fuzzy here, but we try to stick to data that we have reasonably good information for, and this eliminates most of the smaller nonstandard locations. For example, the tz database currently doesn't record the time zone rebellion in Kugluktuk for a couple of weeks in late 2000, though I suppose we could add the data in the unlikely event that someone has the time to track down and verify the exact transitions.
I am in discussions right now with a gentleman named Carl D. Goldin, about the observance of Daylight Saving Time in the world. He has pointed out that if I list the Palestinians on a web site about DST, that it is only fair to list other non-country entities.
In order to avoid those political debates as much as possible, the tz database uses the country code list specified by ISO 3166. Please see: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/index.html
On Monday, April 8, 2002, at 01:53 PM, Carl D. Goldin wrote:
1) My objection, and that of the others who wrote you on the subject, is that there is currently no country by the name of "Palestine".
ISO 3166 added the country code "PS" on 1999-10-01. The official ISO 3166 English name corresponding to that code is "PALESTINIAN TERRITORY, OCCUPIED". However, this name is too long for the functional purposes of the tz database, so we've shortened it to the name "Palestine". This is for the the same reason that we shortened "HOLY SEE (VATICAN CITY STATE)" to "Vatican City", "IRAN, ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF" to "Iran", and "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF" to "Macedonia". (This is not an exhaustive list.) Admittedly the shorter names are less politically correct, but they are more functional and occur more often in mainstream English, and the main goal for the tz database is to have names that sort well and do not confuse English-language users.
it is inaccurate (and an offensive political statement) to include it in your list of "countries", just as it would be to include disputed territories such as the Kashmir, aspiring nations such as the Basque Republic, former nations such as Rhodesia, or unclassifiable entities such as Aryan Nations.
I'm afraid it is impossible to list all the countries in the world without offending somebody or another, which is why we defer to ISO 3166 for our list. The other entities that you mention are not on the list. Conversely, ISO 3166 contains other entries that are not currently real countries, in the sense that most English-speakers would think of "countries"; these include Antarctica (AQ) and Western Sahara (EH). Also, East Timor (TP) was on the ISO 3166 list for quite some time before it became a real country again a couple of years ago.
Paul Eggert said:
Do you know of groups (other than the Palestinians) that have decided to use THEIR OWN DST dates, independent of their surrounding country? I am
interested in both past and present. Sure, lots of them. The Navajo Nation is one example.
And there was that Mexico [City][Federal District] mess.
I'm afraid it is impossible to list all the countries in the world without offending somebody or another, which is why we defer to ISO 3166 for our list. The other entities that you mention are not on the list. Conversely, ISO 3166 contains other entries that are not currently real countries, in the sense that most English-speakers would think of "countries"; these include Antarctica (AQ) and Western Sahara (EH). Also, East Timor (TP) was on the ISO 3166 list for quite some time before it became a real country again a couple of years ago.
3166 is intended to list territories which can usefully be described as politically *or* geographically distinct; thus it includes Martinique as a separate entry but leaves Corsica as part of France, and includes Gibraltar as separate but leaves Man as part of the UK. It is not intended to indicate political independence (note that Ukraine has *always* been in 3166, even though it only became independent in 1990-ish). Palestine is listed on this basis. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: <clive@demon.net> | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: <clive@davros.org> | Fax: +44 870 051 9937 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | | NOTE: fax number change
Thanks Paul and Clive... I currently address Navajo Nation, Indiana, other nonobservant U.S. areas, and Antarctica. The Mexico issue struck me as political but uninteresting. Though, in general, I think idiosyncrasy is fascinating. Note, I am focusing on DST observance here (not time zones in general). So... any other interesting non-ISO entities that you have interesting info about? Michael On Monday, April 8, 2002, at 04:51 PM, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
Sure, lots of them. The Navajo Nation is one example. And there was that Mexico [City][Federal District] mess.
participants (4)
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Clive D.W. Feather -
Michael Douma -
Olson, Arthur David (NCI) -
Paul Eggert