Update Ukrainian Timezones Names
Hi, maintainers of tz, This file was requested by [eggert](https://github.com/eggert/tz/pull/26#issuecomment-595995177). I hope you apply this patch, cause those fantasy names you have on the project now are a real confusion for Ukrainians who are probably 99% of users of Ukrainian timezones. My initial comment: Default timezone names for Ukraine, e.g. Europe/Kiev, are more understandable and correct than ridiculous fantasy style, e.g. Ruthenia. Previous names cause confusion, misunderstanding and are considered inappropriate. Proofs: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=198822, https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=47468, https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=244644. Thanks!
On 3/6/20 3:44 PM, bebyx via tz wrote:
Default timezone names for Ukraine, e.g. Europe/Kiev, are more understandable and correct than ridiculous fantasy style, e.g. Ruthenia.
We can't simply blank the "comments" column, because the user interface for tzselect currently looks like the interaction quoted at the end of this email, and if the last four lines say simply "1) 2) 3) 4)" the user won't know what to select. Presumably there would be similar problems with fancier user interfaces employing this data. The "(most areas)" comment in Ukraine is similar to comments used in Australia, Canada, and other countries. Perhaps you can suggest better comments identifying the three smaller regions involved. Comments should be in the English language and aimed at an English-language audience. ---- $ tzselect Please identify a location so that time zone rules can be set correctly. Please select a continent, ocean, "coord", or "TZ". 1) Africa 2) Americas 3) Antarctica 4) Asia 5) Atlantic Ocean 6) Australia 7) Europe 8) Indian Ocean 9) Pacific Ocean 10) coord - I want to use geographical coordinates. 11) TZ - I want to specify the time zone using the Posix TZ format. #? 7 Please select a country whose clocks agree with yours. 1) Åland Islands 18) Greece 35) Norway 2) Albania 19) Guernsey 36) Poland 3) Andorra 20) Hungary 37) Portugal 4) Austria 21) Ireland 38) Romania 5) Belarus 22) Isle of Man 39) Russia 6) Belgium 23) Italy 40) San Marino 7) Bosnia & Herzegovina 24) Jersey 41) Serbia 8) Britain (UK) 25) Latvia 42) Slovakia 9) Bulgaria 26) Liechtenstein 43) Slovenia 10) Croatia 27) Lithuania 44) Spain 11) Czech Republic 28) Luxembourg 45) Svalbard & Jan Mayen 12) Denmark 29) Malta 46) Sweden 13) Estonia 30) Moldova 47) Switzerland 14) Finland 31) Monaco 48) Turkey 15) France 32) Montenegro 49) Ukraine 16) Germany 33) Netherlands 50) Vatican City 17) Gibraltar 34) North Macedonia #? 49 Please select one of the following time zone regions. 1) MSK+00 - Crimea 2) Ukraine (most areas) 3) Ruthenia 4) Zaporozh'ye/Zaporizhia; Lugansk/Luhansk (east)
Ok, got it. I can offer better names for three smaller regions. First of all, "Ruthenia" should be "Transcarpathia". "Ruthenia" is just a medieval name for Ukraine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia. Second, Crimea should be just "Crimea" or "Central Crimea". I see no point to distract people with that MSK. Third, long title for ex-FET should be changed to short and consize "Zaporizhia (East)". Thanks. ---Вихідне повідомлення-- Увімкнено 7 бер. 2020, 17:22, Paul Eggert пише:
On 3/6/20 3:44 PM, bebyx via tz wrote:
Default timezone names for Ukraine, e.g. Europe/Kiev, are more understandable and correct than ridiculous fantasy style, e.g. Ruthenia.
We can't simply blank the "comments" column, because the user interface for tzselect currently looks like the interaction quoted at the end of this email, and if the last four lines say simply "1) 2) 3) 4)" the user won't know what to select. Presumably there would be similar problems with fancier user interfaces employing this data.
The "(most areas)" comment in Ukraine is similar to comments used in Australia, Canada, and other countries. Perhaps you can suggest better comments identifying the three smaller regions involved. Comments should be in the English language and aimed at an English-language audience.
----
$ tzselect Please identify a location so that time zone rules can be set correctly. Please select a continent, ocean, "coord", or "TZ". 1) Africa 2) Americas 3) Antarctica 4) Asia 5) Atlantic Ocean 6) Australia 7) Europe 8) Indian Ocean 9) Pacific Ocean 10) coord - I want to use geographical coordinates. 11) TZ - I want to specify the time zone using the Posix TZ format. #? 7 Please select a country whose clocks agree with yours. 1) Åland Islands 18) Greece 35) Norway 2) Albania 19) Guernsey 36) Poland 3) Andorra 20) Hungary 37) Portugal 4) Austria 21) Ireland 38) Romania 5) Belarus 22) Isle of Man 39) Russia 6) Belgium 23) Italy 40) San Marino 7) Bosnia & Herzegovina 24) Jersey 41) Serbia 8) Britain (UK) 25) Latvia 42) Slovakia 9) Bulgaria 26) Liechtenstein 43) Slovenia 10) Croatia 27) Lithuania 44) Spain 11) Czech Republic 28) Luxembourg 45) Svalbard & Jan Mayen 12) Denmark 29) Malta 46) Sweden 13) Estonia 30) Moldova 47) Switzerland 14) Finland 31) Monaco 48) Turkey 15) France 32) Montenegro 49) Ukraine 16) Germany 33) Netherlands 50) Vatican City 17) Gibraltar 34) North Macedonia #? 49 Please select one of the following time zone regions. 1) MSK+00 - Crimea 2) Ukraine (most areas) 3) Ruthenia 4) Zaporozh'ye/Zaporizhia; Lugansk/Luhansk (east)
Thanks, I installed the attached patch into the development version on GitHub. It uses your suggestion, except that for Europe/Zaporozhye it uses the comment "Zaporozhye and east Lugansk" which reflects the two regions the zone is supposed to cover, and which also reflects what appear to be the most common English-language spellings for the regions in question.
Thanks a lot, Paul. It's a pleasure to collaborate with you. I'll make sure to share the updates with the Ukrainian community. Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 2:48 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
Thanks, I installed the attached patch into the development version on GitHub. It uses your suggestion, except that for Europe/Zaporozhye it uses the comment "Zaporozhye and east Lugansk" which reflects the two regions the zone is supposed to cover, and which also reflects what appear to be the most common English-language spellings for the regions in question.
On 2020-03-07 08:22, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 3/6/20 3:44 PM, bebyx via tz wrote:
>> Default timezone names for Ukraine, e.g. Europe/Kiev, are more understandable
>> and correct than ridiculous fantasy style, e.g. Ruthenia.
>
> We can't simply blank the "comments" column, because the user interface for
> tzselect currently looks like the interaction quoted at the end of this email,
> and if the last four lines say simply "1) 2) 3) 4)" the user won't know what to
> select. Presumably there would be similar problems with fancier user interfaces
> employing this data.
>
> The "(most areas)" comment in Ukraine is similar to comments used in Australia,
> Canada, and other countries. Perhaps you can suggest better comments identifying
> the three smaller regions involved. Comments should be in the English language
> and aimed at an English-language audience.
Looking at the area names used in news articles and Wikipedia, the suggestions
below seem to be used most (the region is more consistently called Luhansk using
the Ukrainian transliteration, while the city is as often called by the Russian
transliteration Lugansk - more political fodder):
> $ tzselect
> Please identify a location so that time zone rules can be set correctly.
> Please select a continent, ocean, "coord", or "TZ".
> 7) Europe
> #? 7
> Please select a country whose clocks agree with yours.
> 15) France 32) Montenegro 49) Ukraine
> #? 49
> Please select one of the following time zone regions.
> 1) MSK+00 - Crimea
> 2) Ukraine (most areas)
3) Zakarpatska (Transcarpathia)
4) Zaporozhye, Luhansk (East)
Because of regional alliances, I wonder that Donetsk did not participate in 4.
The region appears also to be called Zaporizjzja internationally.
According to https://tass.com/world/756540 the Donbass (Donets Basin) region
(largest city Donetsk): Donetsk People's Republic (DPR/DNR - SE Donetsk region -
largest city Donetsk https://www.geonames.org/709717/donetsk.html N 48°01′23″ E
37°48′08″) and Lu[gh]ansk People's Republic (LPR/LNR - S Luhansk region -
largest city Lu[gh]ansk https://www.geonames.org/709717/luhansk.html N 48°34′01″
E 39°19′01″) switched to Moscow time on 2014 October 26 like other Russian zones.
Western news sources report Ukraine admitted no control over those regions since
mid-2014, and those regions have not participated in Ukrainian elections
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/01/is-this-new-era-ukrainian-politics/
Due to conflict, lack of stable government, and migrations, population numbers
are likely different, and probably down, from the latest 2008 statistics
available in that region:
http://www.geonames.org/UA/largest-cities-in-ukraine.html
You may want to consider adding zones for those regions considering their
history e.g.
[RU,]UA +4801+03748 Europe/Donetsk MSK+00 - DPR
[RU,]UA +4834+03919 Europe/Luhansk MSK+00 - LPR
with histories based on Kiev and Zaporozhye, recently updated like Simferopol:
Zone Europe/Donetsk 2:02:04 - LMT 1880
2:02:04 - KMT 1924 May 2 # Kiev Mean Time
2:00 - EET 1930 Jun 21
3:00 - MSK 1941 Sep 20
1:00 C-Eur CE%sT 1943 Nov 6
3:00 Russia MSK/MSD 1990 Jul 1 2:00
2:00 1:00 EEST 1991 Sep 29 3:00
2:00 E-Eur EE%sT 1995
2:00 EU EE%sT 2014 Oct 26 2:00s
3:00 - MSK
Zone Europe/Luhansk 2:20:40 - LMT 1880
2:20 - +0220 1924 May 2
2:00 - EET 1930 Jun 21
3:00 - MSK 1941 Aug 25
1:00 C-Eur CE%sT 1943 Oct 25
3:00 Russia MSK/MSD 1991 Mar 31 2:00
2:00 E-Eur EE%sT 1995
2:00 EU EE%sT 2014 Oct 26 2:00s
3:00 - MSK
--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains
too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.
As far as I can tell, those regions have expressed desire to join Russia but they have been rejected by Russia, so it doesn't make sense to mention Russia when talking about them. 在 2020年3月11日週三 04:35，Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@systematicsw.ab.ca> 寫道： > On 2020-03-07 08:22, Paul Eggert wrote: > > On 3/6/20 3:44 PM, bebyx via tz wrote: > >> Default timezone names for Ukraine, e.g. Europe/Kiev, are more > understandable > >> and correct than ridiculous fantasy style, e.g. Ruthenia. > > > > We can't simply blank the "comments" column, because the user interface > for > > tzselect currently looks like the interaction quoted at the end of this > email, > > and if the last four lines say simply "1) 2) 3) 4)" the user won't know > what to > > select. Presumably there would be similar problems with fancier user > interfaces > > employing this data. > > > > The "(most areas)" comment in Ukraine is similar to comments used in > Australia, > > Canada, and other countries. Perhaps you can suggest better comments > identifying > > the three smaller regions involved. Comments should be in the English > language > > and aimed at an English-language audience. > > Looking at the area names used in news articles and Wikipedia, the > suggestions > below seem to be used most (the region is more consistently called Luhansk > using > the Ukrainian transliteration, while the city is as often called by the > Russian > transliteration Lugansk - more political fodder): > > > $ tzselect > > Please identify a location so that time zone rules can be set correctly. > > Please select a continent, ocean, "coord", or "TZ". > > > 7) Europe > > > #? 7 > > Please select a country whose clocks agree with yours. > > > 15) France 32) Montenegro 49) Ukraine > > > #? 49 > > Please select one of the following time zone regions. > > 1) MSK+00 - Crimea > > 2) Ukraine (most areas) > 3) Zakarpatska (Transcarpathia) > 4) Zaporozhye, Luhansk (East) > > Because of regional alliances, I wonder that Donetsk did not participate > in 4. > The region appears also to be called Zaporizjzja internationally. > > According to https://tass.com/world/756540 the Donbass (Donets Basin) > region > (largest city Donetsk): Donetsk People's Republic (DPR/DNR - SE Donetsk > region - > largest city Donetsk https://www.geonames.org/709717/donetsk.html N > 48°01′23″ E > 37°48′08″) and Lu[gh]ansk People's Republic (LPR/LNR - S Luhansk region - > largest city Lu[gh]ansk https://www.geonames.org/709717/luhansk.html N > 48°34′01″ > E 39°19′01″) switched to Moscow time on 2014 October 26 like other Russian > zones. > > Western news sources report Ukraine admitted no control over those regions > since > mid-2014, and those regions have not participated in Ukrainian elections > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/01/is-this-new-era-ukrainian-politics/ > > Due to conflict, lack of stable government, and migrations, population > numbers > are likely different, and probably down, from the latest 2008 statistics > available in that region: > http://www.geonames.org/UA/largest-cities-in-ukraine.html > > You may want to consider adding zones for those regions considering their > history e.g. > [RU,]UA +4801+03748 Europe/Donetsk MSK+00 - DPR > [RU,]UA +4834+03919 Europe/Luhansk MSK+00 - LPR > > with histories based on Kiev and Zaporozhye, recently updated like > Simferopol: > > Zone Europe/Donetsk 2:02:04 - LMT 1880 > 2:02:04 - KMT 1924 May 2 # Kiev Mean > Time > 2:00 - EET 1930 Jun 21 > 3:00 - MSK 1941 Sep 20 > 1:00 C-Eur CE%sT 1943 Nov 6 > 3:00 Russia MSK/MSD 1990 Jul 1 2:00 > 2:00 1:00 EEST 1991 Sep 29 3:00 > 2:00 E-Eur EE%sT 1995 > 2:00 EU EE%sT 2014 Oct 26 2:00s > 3:00 - MSK > > Zone Europe/Luhansk 2:20:40 - LMT 1880 > 2:20 - +0220 1924 May 2 > 2:00 - EET 1930 Jun 21 > 3:00 - MSK 1941 Aug 25 > 1:00 C-Eur CE%sT 1943 Oct 25 > 3:00 Russia MSK/MSD 1991 Mar 31 2:00 > 2:00 E-Eur EE%sT 1995 > 2:00 EU EE%sT 2014 Oct 26 2:00s > 3:00 - MSK > > -- > Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada > > This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains > too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised. >
The point is that those ethnic Russian and Russian speaking Republic areas have, like Crimea, followed MSK+00 since the 2014 October 26 switch date. [OT: From what I have read, there has been nothing like rejection, for now just continuing low level conflict and non-compliance with the Minsk I/II agreements, as they are just part of the Great Game still being played by Russia in the Crimean arena, recently used to distract attention from conflicts with Turkey in Syria.] On 2020-03-10 14:45, Phake Nick wrote:
As far as I can tell, those regions have expressed desire to join Russia but they have been rejected by Russia, so it doesn't make sense to mention Russia when talking about them.
在 2020年3月11日週三 04:35，Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@systematicsw.ab.ca <mailto:Brian.Inglis@systematicsw.ab.ca>> 寫道：
On 2020-03-07 08:22, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 3/6/20 3:44 PM, bebyx via tz wrote: >> Default timezone names for Ukraine, e.g. Europe/Kiev, are more understandable >> and correct than ridiculous fantasy style, e.g. Ruthenia. > > We can't simply blank the "comments" column, because the user interface for > tzselect currently looks like the interaction quoted at the end of this email, > and if the last four lines say simply "1) 2) 3) 4)" the user won't know what to > select. Presumably there would be similar problems with fancier user interfaces > employing this data. > > The "(most areas)" comment in Ukraine is similar to comments used in Australia, > Canada, and other countries. Perhaps you can suggest better comments identifying > the three smaller regions involved. Comments should be in the English language > and aimed at an English-language audience.
Looking at the area names used in news articles and Wikipedia, the suggestions below seem to be used most (the region is more consistently called Luhansk using the Ukrainian transliteration, while the city is as often called by the Russian transliteration Lugansk - more political fodder):
> $ tzselect > Please identify a location so that time zone rules can be set correctly. > Please select a continent, ocean, "coord", or "TZ".
> 7) Europe
> #? 7 > Please select a country whose clocks agree with yours.
> 15) France 32) Montenegro 49) Ukraine
> #? 49 > Please select one of the following time zone regions. > 1) MSK+00 - Crimea > 2) Ukraine (most areas) 3) Zakarpatska (Transcarpathia) 4) Zaporozhye, Luhansk (East)
Because of regional alliances, I wonder that Donetsk did not participate in 4. The region appears also to be called Zaporizjzja internationally.
According to https://tass.com/world/756540 the Donbass (Donets Basin) region (largest city Donetsk): Donetsk People's Republic (DPR/DNR - SE Donetsk region - largest city Donetsk https://www.geonames.org/709717/donetsk.html N 48°01′23″ E 37°48′08″) and Lu[gh]ansk People's Republic (LPR/LNR - S Luhansk region - largest city Lu[gh]ansk https://www.geonames.org/709717/luhansk.html N 48°34′01″ E 39°19′01″) switched to Moscow time on 2014 October 26 like other Russian zones.
Western news sources report Ukraine admitted no control over those regions since mid-2014, and those regions have not participated in Ukrainian elections https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/05/01/is-this-new-era-ukrainian...
Due to conflict, lack of stable government, and migrations, population numbers are likely different, and probably down, from the latest 2008 statistics available in that region: http://www.geonames.org/UA/largest-cities-in-ukraine.html
You may want to consider adding zones for those regions considering their history e.g. [RU,]UA +4801+03748 Europe/Donetsk MSK+00 - DPR [RU,]UA +4834+03919 Europe/Luhansk MSK+00 - LPR
with histories based on Kiev and Zaporozhye, recently updated like Simferopol:
Zone Europe/Donetsk 2:02:04 - LMT 1880 2:02:04 - KMT 1924 May 2 # Kiev Mean Time 2:00 - EET 1930 Jun 21 3:00 - MSK 1941 Sep 20 1:00 C-Eur CE%sT 1943 Nov 6 3:00 Russia MSK/MSD 1990 Jul 1 2:00 2:00 1:00 EEST 1991 Sep 29 3:00 2:00 E-Eur EE%sT 1995 2:00 EU EE%sT 2014 Oct 26 2:00s 3:00 - MSK
Zone Europe/Luhansk 2:20:40 - LMT 1880 2:20 - +0220 1924 May 2 2:00 - EET 1930 Jun 21 3:00 - MSK 1941 Aug 25 1:00 C-Eur CE%sT 1943 Oct 25 3:00 Russia MSK/MSD 1991 Mar 31 2:00 2:00 E-Eur EE%sT 1995 2:00 EU EE%sT 2014 Oct 26 2:00s 3:00 - MSK
-- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.
participants (4)
-
bebyx -
Brian Inglis -
Paul Eggert -
Phake Nick