Re: [lac-discuss-es] [lac-discuss-en] Representation and the LACRALO caucus
[[-- Sorry, this message could not be translated. --]] Dear Alejandro: I hear you. Best, Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 17:58, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
Carlton,
no matter how pompously statements are made, this is a ton of lies. Period. Next time you'd be advised to:
1. Speak clearly in plain language without religious terminology, and be sparing in the use of adjectives 2. If your are going to name names, name names. No innuendo, no insinuations. 3. Now the hard part: stick to the truth. Challenging!
Do not be surprised if a complaint against this note is filed before the Ombudsman, as your statements without names would require extensive investigation, and with them, would be refuted in microseconds.
Oh and policy-first for LACRALO? Forgotten again. You own the place now. Prove worthy.
Alejandro Pisanty
------------------------------ *De:* lac-discuss-en <lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> *Enviado:* lunes, 29 de mayo de 2023 04:44 p. m. *Para:* LAC-Discuss-en *Asunto:* Re: [lac-discuss-en] Representation and the LACRALO caucus
A little history and maybe an explanation of my position.
When we became LACRALO and the Secretariat was the only elected regional leader, a member domiciled in Mexico came with a complaint against two other members of this community, one of those from another country.
He alleged corruption in the ALS that returned the men as representatives and vehemently denounced them, labeling them rascals in ordinary. Further exploration found it was largely personal animus. He just intensely disliked both fellows. Their personal attributes offended him.
The Secretariat's then advice to the complainant was that we are bound to take the wheat with the chaff. You never know what you will get. And even if he personally considered those he complained about reprobates or even common fools, so long as they were signatories to a valid MOU with ICANN, kept the peace and followed our code of conduct, the Secretariat had no standing to question the decision of the ALS about their leadership or representatives.
The internal affairs of an ALS were out of bounds and policing an ALS was not a business for this association. The representative remained in good standing with the Secretariat but the ALS he represented was one of the first to voluntarily withdraw from LACRALO and for cause.
If only for the fact I'm ever suspicious of that claim of the Pharisee, I reflexively dislike and find odious what appears to be morality checks, allegedly by and for better men. I continue to hold fast to that position.
Whatever the scheme or guile, this propensity to exclude an Internet end user from an organisation allegedly raised to speak for the Internet end user should be risible and must be vehemently rejected at all times and in all places. All protocols observed, we shall engage every Internet end user who shows up as they come, especially those with the prospect of something to contribute.
Let us be clear. I am unanimous that LACRALO has no standing to police the internal affairs of any member ALS duly admitted to the caucus by virtue of that signed MOU.
Carlton Samuels ============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 16:31, <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Hello you all!
Since Carlton and Alejandro agree on an important issue, I don't want to miss the opportunity to add my 2 cents.😘
From our perspective as ISOC CR chapter I have to recognize that the ISOC.org has done a great job chasing and threatening our chapter to have the transparency required to represent the interest of local internet users. In the process we have not only elected a new leadership team, but have also integrated directly in the leadership team another important local group (Such Batsu) in our chapter and look forward to a great collaboration next week in @rightscon together with ISOC.or, Sula Batsu and hopefully many ICANN friends. The result of this process can be seen in the attachment, as the last election was duly registered in the Costa Rican Registro Nacional on May 15, 2023 for a 2 year period. So it is possible to give a credible proof of our status and we should put the cards on the table instead of prolonging the discussion.
From my perspective, thanks ISOC for pushing us to feel as legitimate ALS in ICANN.
Best to all Carlos Raul
On 2023-05-27T22:38:35.000+02:00, <apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
[[-- Sorry, this message could not be translated. --]]
Hi,
for once I am going to agree with Carlton, with a more fundamental reason. We have not found out for a long time who of the members of LACRALO actually and presently still represent the organizations with which they were recognized as ALS. It is likely that many have lapsed and if we, say, asked a university or an association about there representative they would hardly even know that LACRALO or ICANN even exist. They would be hard pressed to send ICANN a letter signed by a competent, high-level authority ratifiying this designation; they may also find the request a good opportunity to replace their representative. Some others are still valid but may have not made consultations with their membership or leaders previous to their participations and votes.
So yes, making public who voted what is a step towards keeping members who in principle are representatives of organizations accoountable to their own authorities and membership, even if they could have been granted differing levels of freedom to make decisions like this one. A member or an employee may well ask the higher-ups if they agree with the vote and whether they still consider themselves represented by the person voting; or they may want to instill some process for making such decisions in their names in the next round, and for votes in matter other than electing representatives if, and when in the distant future, the "policy-first" agenda agreed some 8 years ago actually kicks in. That, by the way, should be the elected representatives and officialas main, if not only, preoccupation, so that everything else such as outreach, participation, access to resources, and travel, derive from how well the proposed activity will serve influential policy development.
Yours,
Alejandro Pisanty
________________________________ De: lac-discuss-en <lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> Enviado: sábado, 27 de mayo de 2023 11:56 a. m. Para: Staff @ AtLarge CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Asunto: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Announcement - LACRALO Secretariat elect- election 2023
Dear Staff:
A secret ballot is a change in the procedure for LACRALO. There cannot be a secret vote in LACRALO.
The central idea is for decision by consensus. And every other thing follows from this principle.
A vote event is considered a general assembly. In a face-to-face assembly, the entire membership will see who is nominated and who votes.
It is also the right of every member to directly audit any vote. This is especially significant in a process with weighted votes.
So with respect, LACLARO may not have a secret ballot or vote.
Best, Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround =============================
On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 17:01, Staff @ AtLarge <staff@atlarge.icann.org<staff@atlarge.icann.org>> wrote:
EN:
Dear all,
The Secretary Elect vote 2023 has closed. The results of the vote are quorate, having participated in the vote more than 50% of LACRALO ALS (46 ALS). On behalf of Augusto Ho, LACRALO's Chair and Claire Craig, LACRALO Secretariat, we are pleased to announce the following candidate has been elected by vote in 2023:
Sandra Rodriguez , LACRALO Secretariat Elect (Term: AGM 2023 - AGM 2025; designated by elections )
2023 LACRALO Secretariat Elect - Results
Election
Options
Sum of weighted votes
% of weighted Votes
number of voters
% of voters
1
Sandra Rodriguez
46.012
68.82%
33
71.74%
2
Jan Alvarado
21.164
30.28%
10
21.74%
3
Abstain
2.727
3.90%
3
6.52%
To access the poll data see : https://tally.icann.org/cgi/results?e=be9dd5eafc3 [tally.icann.org]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tally.icann.org/cgi/results?e=be9dd5eafc3...>;
Participants in LACRALO Elections ALS 2023 : LACRALO Voting weights 2023 /LACRALO Voto ponderado 2023<https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=240617564>;
Explanation:
In these votes, electorates can only choose one candidate, or to abstain. The vote electorate is anonymous.
All results have been posted on the wiki page 2023 LACRALO Regional Selections<https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/2023+LACRALO+Regional+Selections> <https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/2023+LACRALO+Regional+Selections...>;
At-Large staff would like to congratulate Sandra Rodriguez !
Kind Regards,
At-Large Staff ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org [atlarge.icann.org]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/atlarge.icann.org/__;!!PtGJab4!tDPXhqVORP...>; Facebook: facebook.com/icann [facebook.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.facebook.com/icannatlarge__;!!PtGJab4!tDPXhqVORP17z-83xz1msqsC0_t3g_pu-XM1TpOtg65IlUtxw5MvXDbTuxFpO6dU62tMFPx7kw$>atlarge [facebook.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.facebook.com/icannatlarge__;!!PtGJab4...>; Twitter: @ [twitter.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge__;!!PtGJab4!tDPXhqVORP17z-83xz1msqsC0_t3g_pu-XM1TpOtg65IlUtxw5MvXDbTuxFpO6dU62tB5FQo6A$>ICANNAtLarge [twitter.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge__;!!PtGJab4!tDPX...>;
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org<lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-es mailing list lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
http://www.lacralo.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Grcias Alberto Oscar F. Giudice +598 98 324-744 +549 11 6205-3166
On 29 May 2023, at 20:22, alberto@soto.net.ar wrote:
Perdonen que insista con este tema. Hay muchos que tienen incoveniente con el inglés y viceversa. Cuando escribimos en inglés, deberiamos verificar que estamos en la lista en inglés . Lo mismo cuando escribimos en español, verificar que lo hagamos en la lista en español. Si seguimos así, cada vez habrá menos participación. Lo que me extraña es que lo están haciendo incorrectamente miembros muy antiguos en LACRALO. Mis disculpas.. Alberto
El 29 may 2023 20:10, carlton.samuels@gmail.com escribió: [[-- Sorry, this message could not be translated. --]]
Dear Alejandro:
I hear you.
Best, Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 17:58, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch <apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
Carlton,
no matter how pompously statements are made, this is a ton of lies. Period. Next time you'd be advised to:
1. Speak clearly in plain language without religious terminology, and be sparing in the use of adjectives 2. If your are going to name names, name names. No innuendo, no insinuations. 3. Now the hard part: stick to the truth. Challenging!
Do not be surprised if a complaint against this note is filed before the Ombudsman, as your statements without names would require extensive investigation, and with them, would be refuted in microseconds.
Oh and policy-first for LACRALO? Forgotten again. You own the place now. Prove worthy.
Alejandro Pisanty
------------------------------ *De:* lac-discuss-en <lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> *Enviado:* lunes, 29 de mayo de 2023 04:44 p. m. *Para:* LAC-Discuss-en *Asunto:* Re: [lac-discuss-en] Representation and the LACRALO caucus
A little history and maybe an explanation of my position.
When we became LACRALO and the Secretariat was the only elected regional leader, a member domiciled in Mexico came with a complaint against two other members of this community, one of those from another country.
He alleged corruption in the ALS that returned the men as representatives and vehemently denounced them, labeling them rascals in ordinary. Further exploration found it was largely personal animus. He just intensely disliked both fellows. Their personal attributes offended him.
The Secretariat's then advice to the complainant was that we are bound to take the wheat with the chaff. You never know what you will get. And even if he personally considered those he complained about reprobates or even common fools, so long as they were signatories to a valid MOU with ICANN, kept the peace and followed our code of conduct, the Secretariat had no standing to question the decision of the ALS about their leadership or representatives.
The internal affairs of an ALS were out of bounds and policing an ALS was not a business for this association. The representative remained in good standing with the Secretariat but the ALS he represented was one of the first to voluntarily withdraw from LACRALO and for cause.
If only for the fact I'm ever suspicious of that claim of the Pharisee, I reflexively dislike and find odious what appears to be morality checks, allegedly by and for better men. I continue to hold fast to that position.
Whatever the scheme or guile, this propensity to exclude an Internet end user from an organisation allegedly raised to speak for the Internet end user should be risible and must be vehemently rejected at all times and in all places. All protocols observed, we shall engage every Internet end user who shows up as they come, especially those with the prospect of something to contribute.
Let us be clear. I am unanimous that LACRALO has no standing to police the internal affairs of any member ALS duly admitted to the caucus by virtue of that signed MOU.
Carlton Samuels ============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 16:31, <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Hello you all!
Since Carlton and Alejandro agree on an important issue, I don't want to miss the opportunity to add my 2 cents.😘
From our perspective as ISOC CR chapter I have to recognize that the ISOC.org has done a great job chasing and threatening our chapter to have the transparency required to represent the interest of local internet users. In the process we have not only elected a new leadership team, but have also integrated directly in the leadership team another important local group (Such Batsu) in our chapter and look forward to a great collaboration next week in @rightscon together with ISOC.or, Sula Batsu and hopefully many ICANN friends. The result of this process can be seen in the attachment, as the last election was duly registered in the Costa Rican Registro Nacional on May 15, 2023 for a 2 year period. So it is possible to give a credible proof of our status and we should put the cards on the table instead of prolonging the discussion.
From my perspective, thanks ISOC for pushing us to feel as legitimate ALS in ICANN.
Best to all Carlos Raul
On 2023-05-27T22:38:35.000+02:00, <apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
[[-- Sorry, this message could not be translated. --]]
Hi,
for once I am going to agree with Carlton, with a more fundamental reason. We have not found out for a long time who of the members of LACRALO actually and presently still represent the organizations with which they were recognized as ALS. It is likely that many have lapsed and if we, say, asked a university or an association about there representative they would hardly even know that LACRALO or ICANN even exist. They would be hard pressed to send ICANN a letter signed by a competent, high-level authority ratifiying this designation; they may also find the request a good opportunity to replace their representative. Some others are still valid but may have not made consultations with their membership or leaders previous to their participations and votes.
So yes, making public who voted what is a step towards keeping members who in principle are representatives of organizations accoountable to their own authorities and membership, even if they could have been granted differing levels of freedom to make decisions like this one. A member or an employee may well ask the higher-ups if they agree with the vote and whether they still consider themselves represented by the person voting; or they may want to instill some process for making such decisions in their names in the next round, and for votes in matter other than electing representatives if, and when in the distant future, the "policy-first" agenda agreed some 8 years ago actually kicks in. That, by the way, should be the elected representatives and officialas main, if not only, preoccupation, so that everything else such as outreach, participation, access to resources, and travel, derive from how well the proposed activity will serve influential policy development.
Yours,
Alejandro Pisanty
________________________________ De: lac-discuss-en <lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> Enviado: sábado, 27 de mayo de 2023 11:56 a. m. Para: Staff @ AtLarge CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Asunto: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Announcement - LACRALO Secretariat elect- election 2023
Dear Staff:
A secret ballot is a change in the procedure for LACRALO. There cannot be a secret vote in LACRALO.
The central idea is for decision by consensus. And every other thing follows from this principle.
A vote event is considered a general assembly. In a face-to-face assembly, the entire membership will see who is nominated and who votes.
It is also the right of every member to directly audit any vote. This is especially significant in a process with weighted votes.
So with respect, LACLARO may not have a secret ballot or vote.
Best, Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround =============================
On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 17:01, Staff @ AtLarge <staff@atlarge.icann.org<staff@atlarge.icann.org>> wrote:
EN:
Dear all,
The Secretary Elect vote 2023 has closed. The results of the vote are quorate, having participated in the vote more than 50% of LACRALO ALS (46 ALS). On behalf of Augusto Ho, LACRALO's Chair and Claire Craig, LACRALO Secretariat, we are pleased to announce the following candidate has been elected by vote in 2023:
Sandra Rodriguez , LACRALO Secretariat Elect (Term: AGM 2023 - AGM 2025; designated by elections )
2023 LACRALO Secretariat Elect - Results
Election
Options
Sum of weighted votes
% of weighted Votes
number of voters
% of voters
1
Sandra Rodriguez
46.012
68.82%
33
71.74%
2
Jan Alvarado
21.164
30.28%
10
21.74%
3
Abstain
2.727
3.90%
3
6.52%
To access the poll data see : https://tally.icann.org/cgi/results?e=be9dd5eafc3 [tally.icann.org]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tally.icann.org/cgi/results?e=be9dd5eafc3...>;
Participants in LACRALO Elections ALS 2023 : LACRALO Voting weights 2023 /LACRALO Voto ponderado 2023<https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=240617564>;
Explanation:
In these votes, electorates can only choose one candidate, or to abstain. The vote electorate is anonymous.
All results have been posted on the wiki page 2023 LACRALO Regional Selections<https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/2023+LACRALO+Regional+Selections> <https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/2023+LACRALO+Regional+Selections...>;
At-Large staff would like to congratulate Sandra Rodriguez !
Kind Regards,
At-Large Staff ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org [atlarge.icann.org]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/atlarge.icann.org/__;!!PtGJab4!tDPXhqVORP...>; Facebook: facebook.com/icann [facebook.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.facebook.com/icannatlarge__;!!PtGJab4!tDPXhqVORP17z-83xz1msqsC0_t3g_pu-XM1TpOtg65IlUtxw5MvXDbTuxFpO6dU62tMFPx7kw$>atlarge [facebook.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.facebook.com/icannatlarge__;!!PtGJab4...>; Twitter: @ [twitter.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge__;!!PtGJab4!tDPXhqVORP17z-83xz1msqsC0_t3g_pu-XM1TpOtg65IlUtxw5MvXDbTuxFpO6dU62tB5FQo6A$>ICANNAtLarge [twitter.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge__;!!PtGJab4!tDPX...>;
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org<lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-es mailing list lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
http://www.lacralo.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-es mailing list lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
http://www.lacralo.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-es mailing list lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-es
http://www.lacralo.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (3)
-
alberto＠soto.net.ar -
carlton.samuels＠gmail.com -
Oscar Giudice